How about thinking of the elderly for a change ?

[ivanhoe]

The middle classes have managed to put their case on the media map because of Child Benefit reductions.

Wheras the pensioners cause has never found a media voice.

So middle England are moaning about losing their Child benefit, and the media are picking up on it and discussing it as a topical issue, because the middle classes are making a fuss.

But hang on a minute ?, the poorest people in this country are not the middle classes, they are the working classes who in proportion to income are paying more taxes than the middle class, and the pensioners on a £5,000 a year State pension receiving a State pension which they have already paid for while working prior to their old age retirement are being ignored, even though the oldest pensioners fought for this country during the War years.

Our elderly people are the generation that government?s have run rough shod over for the past 30 years, this is the generation we should all be speaking up for, and this is the generation who have paid into the system all their working lives, but have to endure a basic State pension of £97 a week, and means tested handouts.

Many woman get less State pension due to lack of contributions while raising families.

The State pension is £97 a week, to get the £132 your prattling about, pensioners have to endure a means test, thousands dont take up benefits because of the means test, and why should they when they have paid into the system all their working life.

It's complacency all round on mumsnet for elderly people.

Its a disgrace, you are all so wrapped up in yourselves.

So I suggest you all start saving loads of money for your own old age, and you can bet you life your contributions wont get you a State pension anything like what you earn now.

So your taxes are for nothing, and your NI contributions are for nothing, and god help your kids when they are old.

So infact when you all reach old age, and have probably been divorced, once, twice, three times, because the UK has the highest divorce rates in Western Europe, you will also find yourself up to your eyeballs in means tested forms, just like pensioners today.

Karma, what goes round, comes round.

Ivanhoe - "So I suggest you all start saving loads of money for your own old age, and you can bet you life your contributions wont get you a State pension anything like what you earn now.
"

Yes. And this is why people paying into the system now are not keen on their current contributions being used to pay out more to current pensioners.

When todays pensioners were paying for the pensions of the pensioners claiming while todays pensioners were making contributions, they felt ok about it, as their turn would come. That's not true anymore.

No one want's pensioners to live in poverty. But I don't think they deserve MORE just for being older.

My taxes pay for current expenditure and to pay off the debt caused ny previous expenditure - just as it always has done. NI is JUST tax.

They have to endure means testing - boo hoo.

£132 and they don't have to pay housing costs, council tax, free prescriptions, £200 heating allowance and have free transport. They have far more disposable income than we have right now.

I already know that we wont get a "State pension anything like what you earn now" because there will not be any pension at all, because the baby boomers consistently voted for parties that favoured their own generation.

"In 2008/09, pensioner couples received an average gross income of £564 per week, single male
pensioners received £304 per week and single female pensioners £264
"

So lots of pensioners DO have other income. So a means test is not entirely unreasonable.

"Its a disgrace, you are all so wrapped up in yourselves."

But of course we are Ivanhoe, most posters here have young families and in many cases the focus is how to survive day to day.

YES - we should (attempt to) make provision for our old age, but as the vast majority of pensioners are currently doing perfectly alright, it is hard for people here to get all upset about this issue, when there might be more pressing ones - like how to feed your kids.

I think there is an increasingly apparent problem in that democracy starts to go badly wrong when there is one very self-serving demographic. Baby boomers are such a large group that they will hold an unreasonable amount of power. Now they are becoming pensioners I think ivanhoe will be able to punch the air with joy, as they get a larger and larger slice of the pie, whilst those coming along behind will be taxed and bled until they are reduced to going begging outside old people's homes for a few crusts thrown from the tables of the old and wealthy.

My mother's shortly due to retire, and facing a financial crisis. She has no private pension in place, will be entirely dependent on the state pension, has been paying an interest-only mortgage for the past 15 years so has no equity, and when with my father was fully expecting to live off his pension in their old age (no longer an option for her).

On one hand I feel a lot of sympathy for her, much of this has come about because of society's attitudes to women and lifestyles. BUT, she is also a terrible follower of the credit religion - all I ever remember is her buying things on credit, living beyond our means, always thinking that the banks, the state, her family, whoever would be there to bail her out. Now she's taking the same stance as the OP - 'the state should give her more pension'. But should it? I've been paying into a personal pension since I was 18, and I'm hardly financially savvy. I could just see that the only way my grandmother survived on the state pension was because she and my GF had spent their lives paying off their mortgage, putting away savings, preparing. There's no way I can expect anything from the state when I retire.

So I'm afraid I agree with much that has been said - my mother, in my opinion, represents the very worst habits and attitudes of the baby boomer generation. And I don't want to take money from my children to bail out my mother, either micro-financially in our domsetic sphere, or macro- in the form of taxes.

LisasCat - how old is your mother and is there any possibility that she can work another couple of years? She should also think about downsizing. However, she is an adult and should be able to work all of this out herself.

I started my kids pensions the day they were born, I've never had a job paying more than £50,000 a year but i will retire on more than that.
Expecting the state to support you is where most people young or old go wrong, if you expect nothing you won't be disappointed will you ?

/////but as the vast majority of pensioners are currently doing perfectly alright/////

Absolute crap.

I could play devils advovate here, and ask you why are you having kids, when you cant afford it ?

I could also Cite the fact that the oldest pensioners did not have a welfare state, if they didnt work, they didnt eat.

My mother receives only the state pension (as she will tell anyone who will listen and feel sorry for her). What she doesn't mention is that she sold the family home where I grew up to a property developer who knocked the place down and built three "executive homes" on the land. She downsized considerably to a nice house in the next village and has ££££ in the bank.

This "poor pensioner" has been to Bali, Mauritius and Costa Rica this year, and to France twice. She is off to South Africa in the new year and has goodness knows what else planned for the rest of the year.

But to hear her talk you would think she struggled to pay her council tax, heat the house and have enough to eat. Her friends are all the same - downsized their homes and made at least £200K, but up in arms at the thought of losing their free bus passes. Her brother lives on his own in a nice 4 bed council house in north London - no question that he should move so that a family could have it.

/////// whilst those coming along behind will be taxed and bled until they are reduced to going begging outside old people's homes for a few crusts thrown from the tables of the old and wealthy.//////

For 30 nears pensioners have been having to do this from the rich man's table, it's called means testing.

until they are reduced to going begging outside old people's homes for a few crusts thrown from the tables of the old and wealthy.

Oh no Gramercy, that's not how it'll be at all because their money will be no good to them when they are sick.
I work in health care, am self employed and if you want me to pay more toward the pensioners via my taxes that's fine but I shall squeeze the pensioners that can afford it until they bleed no way will my family suffer.
And our children will be the ones wiping bums, administering the drugs, performing repairs on their houses. TBH they need us more than we need them, you'd think they'd choose their words more carefully. As I always say to my mother i will be choosing your nursing home

///// There's no way I can expect anything from the state when I retire./////

No you wont, and this is the point im making.

The Tory voting middle classes who aspired to Thatcher's self centred ideoligy, are now suffering the consequences of her beginning the running down of the State that New Labour continued, and the coalition are continuing.

With all the taxes you are paying, they will continue being spent overseas in one way or another, and your NI contributions wont be worth a fig in State pensions provision, when reaching retirement.

///////'The State pension is £97 a week, to get the £132 your prattling about, pensioners have to endure a means test, thousands dont take up benefits because of the means test, and why should they when they have paid into the system all their working life.'

Its an easily filled out one off form.
My mum, who has paid into nothing, gets £132 per week. Plus HB and heating allowance.
She ends up lending us money!/////

Oh brother, you just dont see it, do you.

Good old mum, helping out her kids, disgraceful

Please deleate this posting, foul language is not on.

National Insurance is nothing but a huge Ponzi Scheme. The baby boomers didn't have enough children so we were never going to be able to retire.

With all the taxes you are paying, they will continue being spent overseas in one way or another, and your NI contributions wont be worth a fig in State pensions provision, when reaching retirement.

Is this really news to people - seriously ?

With all the taxes you are paying, they will continue being spent overseas in one way or another, and your NI contributions wont be worth a fig in State pensions provision, when reaching retirement.

Is this really news to people - seriously ?

And your happy with that then ?

Ivanhoe - The VAST majority of our taxes are spent here. Health, Welfare and Education account for over 50% alone.

Just what IS your argument? That we should withdraw from foreign wars stop overseas aid and triple pensions?

That pensioners deserve more money than younger people because they are old?

/////Just what IS your argument? That we should withdraw from foreign wars stop overseas aid and triple pensions?

That pensioners deserve more money than younger people because they are old?/////

Well done, it took you long enough.

Old people have funded into the system all their working lives

Young people have just started to, that's the difference.

I had cause to poke around in my ils finances the other week for legitimate reasons and was astounded by what they got as pensioners. Yes, two of the pensions were works pensions, but the state pension was £900 every 4 weeks. I worked out that with all the pension income (and great for them that they had work pensions) they get nearly as much per month as my dh does net, which is a not inconsiderable sum per month.

My mum gets state pension and her small civil service pension, but is still doing OK.

Old people have paid in to the system and had the benefit of that in the services they have received.

Your argument only makes sense if National Insurance had been an actual fund and not just another form of tax.

Old people paid ALL their tax/NI. This was ALL spent (and then some) - so why are they now entitled to more of what is being paid in now?