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Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

1000 replies

VincitVeritas1 · 06/12/2023 17:45

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
heyhohello · 27/02/2024 13:29

@Kdtym10,

I seem to recall although could be mistaken snd mixing it up with something else that the Sufis see fear as the veil between man and God that needs to be swept away in order to reach unity.

I think it's important to remember fearing God (as in reverential fear) is deemed to be right Biblically.

"46 And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48
for he has been mindful
 of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49
for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
 holy is his name.
50
His mercy extends to those who fear him,
 from generation to generation.
51
He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
 he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts." (Luke 46-51)

Basically fear of God is deemed correct and pride ultimately putting self above God is wrong and it is that which can separate us from God also.

But further to this if, as Christians, we wholeheartedly believe in the redemptive power of Jesus Christ's sacrifice (so much so it changes the way we think and act) we need not fear punishment from God.

"17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
19 We love because he first loved us." (1 John 4: 17-19)

heyhohello · 27/02/2024 13:31

Sorry Mary's song is in Luke 1.

heyhohello · 27/02/2024 13:35

I think, actually, fear can be a form of pride. It discounts the sheer power of God and His incredible love and mercy and His superior, infinite, knowledge.

Bluegetaniums · 27/02/2024 13:47

I can't think of anything worse or more utterly terrible than living in some shape and form forever

I agree - that would be torture.

Kdtym10 · 27/02/2024 13:50

Bluegetaniums · 27/02/2024 13:47

I can't think of anything worse or more utterly terrible than living in some shape and form forever

I agree - that would be torture.

How very Gnostic

Bluegetaniums · 27/02/2024 14:00

But what would you do all day?

VincitVeritas1 · 27/02/2024 15:52

I’m interested in how you made your decisions on what is sinful and what isn’t. What about mixed fibres?

@Kdtym10 This is a very complicated subject and really deserves a whole thesis, but here goes:

The laws you're referring to come under the Law of Moses, which were given to the Israelites. Christians are no longer required to follow this law. After Jesus was crucified & resurrected He created what is called the 'New Covenant'. The Levitical priesthood was replaced when Jesus became for us the new, eternal, Great High Priest:

'Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.* *He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house. Jesus has been found worthy of greater honour than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honour than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. "Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,” bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory. (Hebrews 3:1-6).

We are no longer under the Mosaic Law, but under the law of Christ:

“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” (Galatians 5:1-6)

…“So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; * *idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.” (Galatians 5:16-26).

There was a lot of debate in the early church in regards to the recent Gentile (non Jewish) converts:

"Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. The church sent them on their way, and as they travelled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them. Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” (Acts 15:1-11).

…’Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. With them they sent the following letter:
The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.
We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul - men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.’ (Acts 15:22-29).

As a general rule, if a law is reiterated or confirmed in the New Testament, then it still applies today. The Mosaic Law can be divided into three main categories; moral, ceremonial and civil. Moral laws, such as those found in the ten commandments, will always be relevant. Ceremonial laws, such as those relating to ritual purification before entering the tabernacle of God, were specific to the nation of Israel and temporary. Other laws, such as not wearing mixed fabrics, related to the governing of Israel, set the Israelites apart from the nations around them and kept them from adopting their pagan customs and practices. So as you can see, while we can now eat pork and shellfish or wear clothing made from two or more different fabrics, Christians should not be involved with sexual immorality, worshipping idols or any other ‘acts of the flesh’.

OP posts:
VincitVeritas1 · 27/02/2024 16:08

in the nicest way please don’t be sucked into any extreme forms of Christianity on the internet. I suspect the purpose of the thread was to locate people who are struggling. Some forms of Christianity work on the basis of members gathering recruits. Steer clear of them. My therapy recommendation still stands but if you want to explore your fears in a Christian context please speak to a local vicar (CofE) Methodist minister of catholic priest. Your fears can potentially make you quite vulnerable any of those people will be glad to chat with you in a more balanced manner.

I do find this quite insulting @Kdtym10. For all you know I could be a vicar or a pastor and my views are fairly run-of-the-mill (C of E church). Also, what do you imagine I want to recruit Fetchthevet for? I would say between the two of us, that's more likely to be your modus operandi...

OP posts:
VincitVeritas1 · 27/02/2024 16:23

@Kdtym10

Re Nero, you still aren’t answering the question you might want to look up the Nero Redivivus legend (as I’ve said it’s a common trope) this helps explain Revelations a bit more.
The legend against which John was writing Revelations re Nero is that he would come back again. Index in the 20 years following his death at least 3 people claimed to be Nero. It doesn’t matter whether he carried out any of those things. It was talking about his return. It is the foil to Jesus’s return.

That's what I'm saying - Nero never carried out the things that John predicted the Antichrist will do, therefore it cannot be him. There's only one person who has ever come back from the dead (along with those He healed) and it's not (nor ever will be) Nero. Many people have also claimed to be Jesus over the past 2000 years - that doesn't mean any of them were.

What is your issue with Christ consciousness?

https://www.gotquestions.org/Christ-consciousness.html

OP posts:
heyhohello · 27/02/2024 16:33

Jesus made it clear he wasn’t there for Gentiles.

@Kdtym10, did he? He healed Gentiles. He spoke to Gentiles about faith matters. I think He actually challenged the idea that the Messiah was just for Jewish people.

"32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33)
Jesus words are often translated as including the word 'whosoever' (KJV). I take that as being that He was for anyone who chose to follow and believe in/on Him.

qunari · 27/02/2024 16:34

VincitVeritas1 · 27/02/2024 16:08

in the nicest way please don’t be sucked into any extreme forms of Christianity on the internet. I suspect the purpose of the thread was to locate people who are struggling. Some forms of Christianity work on the basis of members gathering recruits. Steer clear of them. My therapy recommendation still stands but if you want to explore your fears in a Christian context please speak to a local vicar (CofE) Methodist minister of catholic priest. Your fears can potentially make you quite vulnerable any of those people will be glad to chat with you in a more balanced manner.

I do find this quite insulting @Kdtym10. For all you know I could be a vicar or a pastor and my views are fairly run-of-the-mill (C of E church). Also, what do you imagine I want to recruit Fetchthevet for? I would say between the two of us, that's more likely to be your modus operandi...

Not sure how much the whole fire-and-brimstone were living in the endtimes stuff can be considered run of the mill these days. Even the honophobia seems to be slowly draining away from the CofE.

pointythings · 27/02/2024 16:40

@VincitVeritas1 your views aren't actually that mainstream. They're pretty fundamentalist. The end times stuff is a glaring example.

VincitVeritas1 · 27/02/2024 16:54

pointythings · 27/02/2024 16:40

@VincitVeritas1 your views aren't actually that mainstream. They're pretty fundamentalist. The end times stuff is a glaring example.

When was the last time you went to church? @pointythings (not including a Christening, wedding or funeral). With respect, I think I'm better placed to decide what constitutes mainstream Christian beliefs.

OP posts:
Mustardseed86 · 27/02/2024 17:30

VincitVeritas1 · 27/02/2024 16:54

When was the last time you went to church? @pointythings (not including a Christening, wedding or funeral). With respect, I think I'm better placed to decide what constitutes mainstream Christian beliefs.

No disrespect to your views, but 'End Times' theories are definitely not mainstream Christian in this country. If I asked my vicar, I imagine she would say every time has had certain signs and people who felt it was imminent, but it's not our job to speculate or be fearful, rather to get on with the business of living out our faith.

Obviously there are other denominations but for your C of E, Methodist or even Catholic churchgoers it won't be on the radar other than perhaps some occasional, personal speculation.

pointythings · 27/02/2024 17:43

@VincitVeritas1 if it doesn't offend you, I'm going to go with @Mustardseed86 for an assessment of what is and isn't mainstream...

Idratherbepaddleboarding · 27/02/2024 18:16

I hope not. If there is a god, he hates me and I hate him so we’d be better off not meeting!

Parker231 · 27/02/2024 19:27

heyhohello · 27/02/2024 13:35

I think, actually, fear can be a form of pride. It discounts the sheer power of God and His incredible love and mercy and His superior, infinite, knowledge.

Very subjective as to whether he has those qualities - many could claim to have them.

heyhohello · 27/02/2024 19:38

@Parker231 according the Christian Faith that is what I believe. However, this belief is a matter of faith which involves choosing to believe as such. I wouldn't want to believe the opposite to what I have stated.

heyhohello · 27/02/2024 19:41

@Parker231

Although I'm not sure choice is quite the right word. It's a choice like love is a choice.

Bluegetaniums · 27/02/2024 19:43

Where is this 'heaven' and how can there be space for so many people??

Mustardseed86 · 27/02/2024 20:40

heyhohello · 27/02/2024 08:56

Interestingly, possession / possessive reincarnation can be an interesting trope for horror fiction. Similar to the vampire idea, except there the vampire requires innocent blood as a restorative life force to keep the undead alive and the in the former an 'unclean' spirit requires an innocent body to possess.

Horror as a genre can be quite spiritual (for want of a better word) - exploring and confronting the nature of good and evil. I can't really cope with it though, I tend to find it too deeply disturbing.

I've always thought it was odd to seek out something that says on the tin it will 'horrify' you! But I suppose it's human nature to confront our fears and fascinations.

heyhohello · 27/02/2024 20:55

I've always thought it was odd to seek out something that says on the tin it will 'horrify' you! But I suppose it's human nature to confront our fears and fascinations.

@Mustardseed86, I find it's not easy to categorise. I don't generally like gratuitous horror. However books such as Wuthering Heights, for example, can be described as gothic horror. Cathy's haunting. Heathcliff scrabbling about in her grave in his grief. There's lots of very highly rated literature that is horror. It does confront lots of things about love and human nature and the spiritual.

heyhohello · 27/02/2024 21:03

@Mustardseed86 but, yes, some is too disturbing and upsetting for me too.

Kdtym10 · 28/02/2024 07:06

VincitVeritas1 · 27/02/2024 15:52

I’m interested in how you made your decisions on what is sinful and what isn’t. What about mixed fibres?

@Kdtym10 This is a very complicated subject and really deserves a whole thesis, but here goes:

The laws you're referring to come under the Law of Moses, which were given to the Israelites. Christians are no longer required to follow this law. After Jesus was crucified & resurrected He created what is called the 'New Covenant'. The Levitical priesthood was replaced when Jesus became for us the new, eternal, Great High Priest:

'Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.* *He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house. Jesus has been found worthy of greater honour than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honour than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. "Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,” bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory. (Hebrews 3:1-6).

We are no longer under the Mosaic Law, but under the law of Christ:

“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” (Galatians 5:1-6)

…“So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; * *idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.” (Galatians 5:16-26).

There was a lot of debate in the early church in regards to the recent Gentile (non Jewish) converts:

"Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. The church sent them on their way, and as they travelled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them. Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” (Acts 15:1-11).

…’Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. With them they sent the following letter:
The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.
We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul - men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.’ (Acts 15:22-29).

As a general rule, if a law is reiterated or confirmed in the New Testament, then it still applies today. The Mosaic Law can be divided into three main categories; moral, ceremonial and civil. Moral laws, such as those found in the ten commandments, will always be relevant. Ceremonial laws, such as those relating to ritual purification before entering the tabernacle of God, were specific to the nation of Israel and temporary. Other laws, such as not wearing mixed fabrics, related to the governing of Israel, set the Israelites apart from the nations around them and kept them from adopting their pagan customs and practices. So as you can see, while we can now eat pork and shellfish or wear clothing made from two or more different fabrics, Christians should not be involved with sexual immorality, worshipping idols or any other ‘acts of the flesh’.

It’s really not very complicated. MATTHEW 5:17
“Think not that I am come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

you’re quoting those who were largely trying to expand cults.

Kdtym10 · 28/02/2024 07:11

VincitVeritas1 · 27/02/2024 16:08

in the nicest way please don’t be sucked into any extreme forms of Christianity on the internet. I suspect the purpose of the thread was to locate people who are struggling. Some forms of Christianity work on the basis of members gathering recruits. Steer clear of them. My therapy recommendation still stands but if you want to explore your fears in a Christian context please speak to a local vicar (CofE) Methodist minister of catholic priest. Your fears can potentially make you quite vulnerable any of those people will be glad to chat with you in a more balanced manner.

I do find this quite insulting @Kdtym10. For all you know I could be a vicar or a pastor and my views are fairly run-of-the-mill (C of E church). Also, what do you imagine I want to recruit Fetchthevet for? I would say between the two of us, that's more likely to be your modus operandi...

Lol. Your views are not mainstream, they’re evangelical. I have never come across any priest or vicar (and I’ve come across a lot) with your views.

As for me trying to recruit, recruit into what? Individual thought? Critical thinking? Historical facts? I’m keen to hear so please explain.

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