Will you make it to Heaven?

[Vincitveritas]

Take the quiz and see!

jesusplusnothing.com/the-heaven-test

@Mustardseed86 I was talking generally about hijacking and berating.

Really? This comment: "You really don't seem to like me very much - whatever happened to Christian unity?! You're very welcome to start your own thread. It's very bad manners to hijack someone else's and berate the OP, but I suppose that's Mumsnet for you", addressed to me, was just you talking generally about hijacking and berating? 🤔

It's interesting how your approach to others on this thread, which you started with a fun quiz about who is going to hell, really mirrors your beliefs about God. It's only people with the right beliefs or who don't ask difficult questions that you think are worthy to be here.

And to compare yourself to victims of antisemitism or Islamaphobia is staggering tbh. Has anyone suggested you're secretly running the world financial system or accused you of terrorist sympathies? Has anyone shared dehumanising cartoon images of people of your faith? No. What's happening is that you've gone onto a secular forum with a very loaded question and other posters are asking you some loaded questions back about what it is you actually stand for. Persecution of Christians has happened historically and is still a reality in parts of the world but you are not in any way facing that reality.

these are key issues and difficulties the Church and religious groups are having to face up to?

@Parker231 If you were actually interested you could ask your local Vicar or equivalent. I don't have to justify my opinion on these topics and they're not going to change anytime soon. Again, this is not an 'I'm a Christian, ask me anything'.

Its a forum - we’re all justifying our opinions - and like you, I’m not likely to change my opinion. We’ve completed the quiz and debating the results . You’re very selective as to which topics you want discussing - not your decision!

Why would I ask my local vicar - I don’t go to any church.

It's only people with the right beliefs or who don't ask difficult questions that you think are worthy to be here.

Exactly this. This is a forum. And this is how forums work - people challenge, people ask difficult questions and they have every right to do so.

If you didn't want a debate, maybe you should have thought about starting your thread somewhere other than Mumsnet.

And what's the value in a thread where every post is 'Oh you are so right, this quiz has opened my eyes, I am a woeful sinner and will change my ways'? The world is full of people who are not Christians, or not your brand of Christian, and they are all allowed a voice.

And even if you asked your local vicar you would only be getting their CofE interpretation , go to the local priest, Methodist or baptist minister you would likely get a further 3 different answers. Actually if you asked 2 different CofE vicars esp from different dioceses you would likely get two different answers.

If you had RTFT as you claim, you would already know the answer to that.

I have RTFT and no I don't see the answer anywhere. But sure, continue to see people talking Bout religions other than your own as equivalent anti-semetism if it helps to fuel your persecution complex.

My goodness, what a thoroughly depressing corner of the internet. It's taken me far too long to realise most posters are not interested in a friendly debate. This forum only acts as an echo chamber and an outlet for frustrated bullies. I take my leave here. Best wishes @OMG12, we might hold very different views but I've enjoyed conversing with you over the past few months. x

Thanks for responding, I just saw this. Reading your link has left me with more questions than answers, I have to admit!

For example, is it your belief that Jesus's body was stolen from his tomb - so you explicitly reject the resurrection? I noticed you said that in another post.

There seems to be a lot of emphasis on 'hidden' knowledge, is that about right? I'm a bit sceptical of that because to put it in very unspiritual terms, it seems to me far more likely that these ideas were not ultimately that compelling or helpful and thus didn't find many takers in the 'marketplace of ideas'. So they were essentially discarded along the way. I fully admit I haven't delved into it that much but I know quite a bit is made of the Gospel of Thomas, and having read that, I actually found it rather spiritually barren. The Gospel of John knocks it into a cocked hat IMO!

Where I would probably agree with you is that as human beings we have a spiritual nature which can find expression through a sense of awe and wonder, at mysteries that are beyond our understanding. I just feel there is so much richness within the Christian tradition and in actually encountering the Creator himself, as a being distinct from us but also in relationship with us. So for example I feel incredibly close to God when I'm in nature, but I don't worship nature itself, I see it as showing me something of God's own nature. Likewise when you linked to some quotes from Jung, that to me diminishes the Divine into an element of human psychology, rather than opening us up to meeting a God who is real and alive and actually personally loves us each individually. I may be totally off the mark in regards to your beliefs, and I don't even know if what I've written will make sense to you. Feel free to ignore if you want!

@Vincitveritas - depressing - yes - you’ve bullied your way through the thread - you don’t like being challenged that your way isn’t the way many of us live our lives. I don’t need to be threatened that I’m going to hell. Thankfully I don’t need an imaginary god in my life. Am very sorry that you feel that way. Hopefully things will get better for you.

Vincitveritas · 09/05/2023 23:02
@Parker231 As I've said before it's not a 'tactic', it is literally what will happen according to the Bible. I am also 100% sure of this - so, who is correct??

I’m sorry you feel that way about the discussion- I actually enjoy your threads, it’s enabled me to explore some further ideas.

Ive just read a really well thought of science fiction book, it’s not a genre I’ve really explored before. Despite many raving about it,’ and although it’s an interesting story I felt it was very flat. Having spoken with some other people I seemed to be skipping what I thought was boring waffle yet others thought was the crowning highlight of the book.

I came to the conclusion that the book lacked and meaning, there was no moral to the tale, it was by part of anything bigger.. Then it struck me that this is how we all see life differently, for some life is great, acquiring knowledge is great, exploring what’s on earth is great, it’s the only thing to do. There’s enough to explore through the 5 physical senses. That all that exists, trying to persuade this group that there’s something more is pointless, because u to i this group there is nothing more. Their experience is enough.

For me, I can’t imagine not seeing something else, it’s there, it’s like trying to persuade me the nose on my face isn’t there. I’m in the group that sees the world beyond the 5 senses. It’s difficult for me to understand how people don’t see the “more”. But I know they don’t. I find it bizarre, it’s like standing in Battery Park trying to tell me the Statue of Liberty doesn’t exist. I don’t need to perform any experiments to prove it, I can just see it.

But we all stand in different places. We all experience life differently, we need to respect that. Trying to persuade someone stood in China the Statue of Liberty exists without proof is pointless unless they have faith in you and respect you. But they would never really know unless they moved positions. I think we just need to accept peoples on views as they look out their own doors of perception (whether clean or not)

Hi sorry, I don’t have the time to respond atm but will do later. But you might want to look up purposes of initiation into spiritual groups throughout history, you could start with the Egyptians.

Hi, everything you wrote makes perfect sense. I will try and answer you queries but some might be in generic terms.

Do I believe Jesus’s body was stolen from the tomb? I don’t know, if it did leave the tomb I suspect that it was taken to stop the tomb becoming too much of a focus for his followers, for the body to come under the control of the Pharisees or to protect his body.

I don’t believe that Jesus came back to life in his body and appeared to a few people (who often don’t recognise him). I believe this was all allegorical/symbolic.

Although I believe Jesus existed as a Jewish teacher/cult leader I don’t believe he was any more the sin of god than you or I, but then I believe we’re all Divine.

Regarding “hidden ideas” yes you’re right in a way.

Here we can only really concentrate on why things are hidden or occulted (hence the Occult).

The reason is largely linked to orthodox religion. One of the ways it has maintained such control is through the persecution of non-conformity. If we take the Christian era, look at all the people who have been tortured and died for having other beliefs. This pushed these ideas underground. Look at the change in attitudes between Elizabeth’s reign and that of James for example. People have hidden knowledge for their own safety.

So why weren’t these beliefs part of mainstream religion? Going back to one of religions main purposes of conformity and control ideas which make individuals subservient, establish clear hierarchies and give a small elite special privileges (priests) over the masses to act as gate keepers to reward are favoured, Ideas that empower an individual as guardians of their own spiritual destiny less so.

Secondly most of the ideas are escoteric, they were meant for the few, to understand them takes years of dedication, training and many think only a tiny minority of people will ever be able to get there, the information is not for the masses, it can be easily misunderstood, some might claim it is too powerful for every Tom Dick or Harry. Most think spirituality is a journey and it is only at a certain point you can reach that.

Today you can order most of the written versions of a lot of this knowledge off Amazon tbh😂. It’s not hidden. But to many it doesn’t make sense, it’s written off as all manner of things. For claptrap to evil. That’s because many don’t understand, because they are lacking a key that not everyone holds. People can take that how they will, to a true seeker others thoughts are just that, theirs. Owning lots of books on the occult doesn’t make someone understand though, there’s a lot more to it. That is internal.

re Carl Jung, I don’t think his views diminish anything - he was a true seeker, he saw God as many alchemists do, he was intrigued by the Rosicrucian alchemical manefesto. Psychology in those perimeters isn’t as we think it today.

Re the Gospel of Thomas, I understand why many mainstream Christian’s might find it “barren”, because Christianity has made a huge thing out of the story encapsulating the message. When you’re just left with the saying these might seem bare. But when you see a story as old as time and these sayings slot in it helps you view them from multiple directions and creates deeper meaning. If that makes sense.

people get different things from different religions, myths etc, I’m a perenialist so I get similar concepts from most religions. Some people will find all they need in one. That’s the beauty of life. Everyone can find their own path it’s not for others to decide whether it’s the right or wrong one, only you can decide it for yourself.

Hope that makes sense.

Thank you, really interesting! I will have a ponder and get back to you - if you're enjoying the dialogue 😇

Of course but there’s quite a bit I can’t answer

You're the one telling people to get off "your" thread for disagreeing with you.

You’re not allowed to disagree - another strike against you on the path to hell! I’m still sticking to the position that I can’t end in hell - haven’t done anything wrong and can’t be sent by an imaginary being to a place I don’t believe exists. Makes sense to me.

Apologies @OMG12 that it's taken me ages to get back to this thread - hectic time leading up to half term, then immediately succumbed to a horrible fluey cold! I'm still not feeling very mentally sharp but I've been thinking about what you said, particularly about spirituality, and maybe this is where we differ fundamentally in that I don't feel I have a spirituality as such, but rather a faith, which is as much about normal day-to-day experiences and finding God in the ordinary as it is about the sublime and transcendent. And I think when we overcomplicate things that can become a sort of 'spiritual elitism', if you will.

I love discussing and thinking about all the details, doctrine, history, religious experiences, miracles, what meaning we find or give to the Eucharist/Lord's Supper, etc etc. But ultimately the core of my faith is really simple and it's about loving God and neighbour, and I know and feel that it's when I'm living that out most faithfully that I'm actually most 'alive' in my relationship with God. If spirituality is about having a connection to something greater than oneself, then that's where I find real spirituality and that indefinable feeling, almost like suddenly seeing the world in full colour and being in harmony with the deeper meaning of life.

And I think that absolutely is for any Tom, Dick and Harry; it wouldn't be worth much to me if it wasn't. I believe God has created us all in his image and we're all equally invited to know him through those simple spiritual truths. The simplicity is the point, and it is deceptive in a way, because there's actually an endless depth to be found there.

@Vincitveritas flouncers are rarely gone for long

Sorry to hear you’ve been ill. hoping you feel better soon.

I can see the attraction of simplicity. But even Christianity isn’t really that simple - at least the catholic and othodox churches and to, perhaps a lesser extent to recognised Protestant churches.

However the way I view the universe, the divine, myself and the ultimate goal on my existence to be reunited with the divine requires an understanding of the emanations of god, knowledge of how to read a map, understanding of the connections.

I look at it this way, anyone can get in a car to drive to a destination after 1 lesson, without knowing how to map read, relying on intuition to understand the road signs you might get lucky and get there,

however, if you teach yourself to drive and go on an advanced driving course you have less chance of crashing, if you know how to read a map, you can still reach your destination even if there’s a diversion. You can navigate round others bad driving with experience, knowledge of stopping distances, signs etc. if you understand how the car works, if something goes wrong you can fix it.

I know that’s a simple analogy but it’s a start.

episode on theurgy is good

Well hello. I have returned.

Pourquoi?

Dear pointythings, do I need a motive?

Well, given that it's pretty much all been said on this thread, one does wonder.

However, it does give me an opportunity to wish you a warm and festive Yuletide.

Thanks @pointythings that's very kind and the same to you 😊
Interesting use of the word Yuletide there - I like to keep Christ at the centre of festivities, of course.

I've got two active pagans coming this year - and of course the pagan festival was there first.

I remember this thread! The one where I’m told I’ll go to hell - regardless of not believing in the concept and happy as an atheist!