Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

[Sausagenbacon]

and why does Justin Welby bother with her?

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage

She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her.

I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it.

I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

'..on a micro level' that should read.

And I guess my question regarding the assumed immutability of sexuality is somewhat triggering @ShodanLives since you have faced prejudice and harsh treatment in the past due to your sexuality. So I can understand your apparent attempt to polarise my posts. However, this doesn't really work towards understanding between different groups and cultures of people. It can have the opposite effect in that it shuts down any dialogue and causes further divisions. Not that there is any obligation to talk or explain but this is essentially a discussion forum and talking can be what is required for peaceful resolution in light of prejudices.

Why some people and not others? I really think a lot depends on what a person thinks is possible, their motivations and what they want out of life. I know generally ideas over what is possible affects the things I aim towards, plus I have to want it and be motivated.

There we go again. The idea that people can change their sexuality, but they just don't want it enough, aren't trying hard enough. Victim blaming. I can assure you that many of the people who have been killed for their sexuality throughout history have had plenty motivation.

And yes, it was something I wanted. But it simply was not and is not physically possible.

@ShodanLives, I am not victim blaming at all. That would suggest I think you were wrong and I make no judgment concerning what you have or have not decided to do with regards to your sexual orientation.

But no choice = victim and choice = freedom. I don't think it is offensive to actively pursue freedom and consider choice simply as a possibility. I actually think I do choose a lot in my life.

In fact feeling forced is something that would offend me. Even if what I feel forced into is something I would choose off my own volition. The feeling forced takes the joy out of it. If it is something that I think is right I have to convince myself I am still making the decision to choose it by not resisting.

"And yes, it was something I wanted"

Why did you want it, @ShodanLives? Because you thought it was right or just to make life easier?

When I have disagreed with quite authoritative people in the past because I felt it was the right thing to do, it generally made life very difficult, at least in the short term. However, I don't regret these decisions. I don't particularly feel like a victim either, more like a victor really.

I'm not talking about standing up to authoritative people, I'm talking about active persecution. And I'm not just talking about me and talking about people around the world and all through history. And yeah having a sexual orientation that does not put them at risk of being killed 'makes their life easier' of you want to minimise it like that. It's not about the right thing to do, whatever the fuck that means, it's about survival.

, I am not victim blaming at all. That would suggest I think you were wrong and I make no judgment concerning what you have or have not decided to do with regards to your sexual orientation.

There was no fucking decision involved why don't you understand that?

"There was no fucking decision involved why don't you understand that"

@ShodanLives why do you not understand that I'm not saying there was a decision involved? I believe you.

My problem is is that you are claiming your experience is true for everyone, ever regarding their sexuality. I'm simply saying is that your experience might not be universal.

If you did have a choice would you actually choose to be any different?

And just because I use calm language doesn't mean I am minimising anything. It's the way I talk in real life too even in traumatic situations. I simply find it helps.

"It's not about the right thing to do, whatever the fuck that means, it's about survival."

It can be about both as per the saying, 'Live to fight another day...'

You said "what you have or have not decided to do with regards to your sexual orientation." which more than implies a decision. And describing people who are persecuted, shunned, beaten, killed for their sexuality in that way is more than just using calm language 🙄

If you don't decide to do, you're not making a decision, @ShodanLives. Otherwise all the decades I haven't made could be described as decisions.

And essentially, I am talking about biology and possible biological bodily autonomy which doesn't necessarily care about people's circumstances or if it does would be specific to the circumstances of a particular body. So either way, comparing yourself to people in different circumstances isn't undisputedly valid.

Otherwise all the decisions I haven't made could be described as decisions.

And people are persecuted for their choices all the time. Religious persecution, political persecution. It's as old as time. So no, I don't think mooting the possibility that sexuality isn't always necessarily unchangeable and immutable is particularly offensive.

And people are persecuted for their choices all the time. Religious persecution, political persecution. It's as old as time. So no, I don't think mooting the possibility that sexuality isn't always necessarily unchangeable and immutable is particularly offensive.

I'm sorry but I can't find any logic here. Because people suffer religious and political persecution, that means something in relation to the nature of sexuality?

I don't think you're being entirely consistent in the language or logic of your posts and I'm not surprised other posters are getting annoyed. You make a point or use a word, someone criticises it, you say you didn't make that point or use that word in the way most people would read it. A calm tone doesn't mean much if the content is off.

Do you actually believe that people in these situations choose to be gay or bisexual? Why?

Victim blaming, whataboutery. You're determined to justify this homophobic pray away the gay bullshit.

Decide to do what? There was never any decision to make, or not to make. And I have no idea wtf you mean by circumstances of a particular body.

@ShodanLives & @MeganTheeScallion

The point is persecution for choices is still persecution.

Which means asking whether sexuality always is necessarily immutable and unchanging doesn't means I view perception as anything less than persecution.

@ShodanLives, please stop projecting your own insecurities onto me and claiming I am saying something I have been very careful not to say and time and time again clarified this. You are attempting typical 'straw man' tactics. Unoriginal and pointless unless you just want your own echo chamber.

persecution as anything less than persecution

"I'm sorry but I can't find any logic here. Because people suffer religious and political persecution, that means something in relation to the nature of sexuality? "

@MeganTheeScallion because it highlights that it is not so unusual that people will still make choices they know they will be persecuted for.

So ShodanLives comment that people would choose to be gay and be persecuted for it isn't necessarily true.

Wouldn't choose

So why exactly would someone decide to be gay in a place where that is punishable by death?

And I'm not attempting any kind of straw man tactic, just attempting to respond to your near-incomprehensible posts. I mean what the fuck does If you don't decide to do, you're not making a decision mean? Or possible biological bodily autonomy? It's just word salad.