Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

[Sausagenbacon]

and why does Justin Welby bother with her?

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage

She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her.

I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it.

I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

@ShodanLives it's not something I really discuss with people IRL but if someone told me they could change / have changed at will I am open to the possibility of it being true. Simply because I believe a person's own sexuality is something which is self defined. Which is essentially my point.

I'm a bit bit confused. You have never come across someone who has said they can change their sexual orientation but still believe - based on no evidence - that some people can. But only some people? What percentage of the population can do this? Do they have a gene that allows them to? What's the process for doing it? It seems to be something you've just entirely made up.

No, @ShodanLives I simply believe in the possibility of this. No evidence needed for that.

But how? And why can only some people do it? And what determines who can?

Possibilities do not have to be defined or specific. @ShodanLives. I can believe something might be true and I might not understand it.

@ShodanLives do you believe people's sexuality is not self defined, then?

If they described their sexuality to be something outside your own experience or understanding would you not believe them?

Do you believe it's possible to generalise about people's individual sexuality?

So you're making it up as you go along. You have no answers.

You're the one telling other people they'll can change their sexual orientation, not me.

@ShodanLives, and you think you have all the answers? Who's making stuff up now?

'You're the one telling other people they'll can change their sexual orientation, not me.'

@ShodanLives, no I'm not. Stop putting words into my mouth. I said it is possible that sexuality might develop and change over the period of somebody's lifetime. That there is a possibility that sexuality is not immutable and unchangeable. Do you not understand nuance?

I don't understand anything you're saying frankly, you seem to change your mind with every post. And completely avoid any request for clarification.

What is it about believing in the possibility that sexuality could develop and change over time or believing people should be allowed to define their own sexuality that is so offensive that you would seek to polarise my argument to the extreme namely into saying people can absolutely change their sexual orientation?

@ShodanLives

'I don't understand anything you're saying frankly, you seem to change your mind with every post. And completely avoid any request for clarification.'

@ShodanLives my position has remained the same. You just don't seem to understand what it means to be genuinely open minded to possibilities.

It's not the suggestion that it changes naturally over time, but rather that a person can willingly change their sexual orientation and I'd they don't it's because they don't want it enough or that they have an easy life, and that people whobare persecuted for being gay chose to be gay. That is offensive, and inaccurate.

The thing I take issue most here is the contention that it is possible to willingly change preference. There is zero evidence for that statement. I don't live by belief.

'It's not the suggestion that it changes naturally over time, but rather that a person can willingly change their sexual orientation and I'd they don't it's because they don't want it enough or that they have an easy life, and that people whobare persecuted for being gay chose to be gay. That is offensive, and inaccurate.'

@ShodanLives, well it's a good job I'm not saying that isn't it. I think you have become used to being so defensive of your position you are seeking out enemies where they don't exist. Which is sad as they could actually be allies without you knowing.

"The thing I take issue most here is the contention that it is possible to willingly change preference"

@ShodanLives I have no make no contentions regarding over other people's sexuality because it is self defined.
It would be more accurate to say my claim is there is a chance it might be possible to willingly change with regards to what I have said. As in I don't rule this out. Simply because sexuality is self defined which means generalisations about it should not be made. And I have been very careful with my wording in order to make this clear.

Sorry last post @pointythings

What do you mean self-defined? Surely that implies choice?

And you still haven't explained how someone goes about changing their sexuality. I am quite interested given that I have tried.

@ShodanLives, if you don't define your own sexuality who does? Does anyone else have the right to do that?

I couldn't tell you definitively the agent by which someone's sexuality might develop and change over time. It's not something I have consciously considered changing. Although I have changed my mind over what attributes I find attractive in men over the years. I believe the interaction between society and the individual will have some affect upon sexuality and attitudes towards attraction. Just look at how attitudes over what is deemed attractive or acceptable (as portrayed by the mass media) have changed over the last few decades. But this is not something that I believe can be socially engineered for guaranteed results. However, you must have believed this was possible if you attempted it yourself @ShodanLives. What made you believe it might be possible?

The Church of England is in a privileged position above all other Christian denominations and religions in the UK due to being the established church and seats for bishops in the House of Lords

This!

Also the King is the head of the CofE. Of COURSE it should be scrutinised.
Good for Sandy!

What makes a book of made up stories the moral authority on anything?

Oh he should listen to some homophobic random on mumsnet though right? 🙈

If you've never seen it happen and don't know how it could happen, on what do you base the idea that people can change their own sexual orientation? And again, why can only some people do it?

I don't define my own sexuality any more than I define my eye colour. It just is. And I'm not sure I ever really believed I could change my own sexuality, it was pure desperation on my part. Desperation born of what I faced from people like @HandyLady, whose vile video is what I was responding to in the first place.

"If you've never seen it happen and don't know how it could happen, on what do you base the idea that people can change their own sexual orientation? And again, why can only some people do it?"

@ShodanLives, if you read earlier through this thread you will see I initially started out with the question of whether sexuality is unchangeable or whether it develops and changes over a life time. The idea is not that people can change it is that it is possible that they might be able to. That this exists as a possibility.

Reasons why I think it might be possible is that on a macro level (i.e within the same sexual orientation) what is found to be sexually attractive can definitely change. And on a societal level this changes too. I also remember vaguely at approximately 5 years old being outraged women couldn't marry other women. I wasn't that impressed with men or boys at the time. However, as I grew older I found I was straight and didn't particularly fancy other women. All my teenage crushes were male, I had boyfriends then married a man.

Why some people and not others? I really think a lot depends on what a person thinks is possible, their motivations and what they want out of life. I know generally ideas over what is possible affects the things I aim towards, plus I have to want it and be motivated.

"I don't define my own sexuality any more than I define my eye colour. It just is. And I'm not sure I ever really believed I could change my own sexuality, it was pure desperation on my part. Desperation born of what I faced from people like @HandyLady, whose vile video is what I was responding to in the first place."

And I haven't placed any value judgement on that. So you didn't believe you could and the motivation stemmed from other people's prejudice and criticism. So it sounds like this wasn't something you personally actually wanted or thought was desirable.

Personally, I often find possibilities and uncertainties quite empowering. And if I want things to remain as they are I can feel satisfied that is because they have value to me.

I wish you well, @ShodanLives.