Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

[Sausagenbacon]

and why does Justin Welby bother with her?

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage

She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her.

I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it.

I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

if you believe that an entirely patriarchal construct such as marriage is grounded in free choice of women, you’re even more uniformed than I thought.

@FurAndFeathers
This is a thread about marriage in church. Equal opportunities for marriage in church for people who gay. Of course choice, love and enough agency to make promises comes into it!

First sentence meant to be in quotes

Meant to write 'are gay'.

This is a thread about marriage in church. Equal opportunities for marriage in church for people who gay. Of course choice, love and enough agency to make promises comes into it!

so where is the choice and agency of gay people supported and respected in Church and marriage?

What about marriages of convenience, coerced marriage, forced marriage, etc? As PP have said, there is much to unpick re. patriarchy around the history or marriage. (I say this as someone who is married, happily).

So you've never felt attraction before love? Never felt sexually attracted to anyone you just met, or even seen across a room or on TV? That's highly unusual, are you asexual?

That's not troubling, it's the way it works for the vast majority of the population. Maybe everyone except you actually.

"so where is the choice and agency of gay people supported and respected in Church and marriage?"

@FurAndFeathers, this is what the C of E is moving towards and have recently announced they will be formally blessing gay relationships.

@MeganTheeScallion

"What about marriages of convenience, coerced marriage, forced marriage, etc? As PP have said, there is much to unpick re. patriarchy around the history or marriage. (I say this as someone who is married, happily)."

Indeed there is much to unpick. And of course the validity of those marriages of convenience, coerced marriages and forced marriages has to be questioned. Could they even be described as a marriage?

Yes they definitely are in actual law, but maybe not in religious 'law' (can't think of the right word, sorry).

Shorthand for saying that it isn’t then.

the church has zero intention of respecting the agency of gay people - unless it’s used as an excuse to condemn them ‘for their choices’

otherwise it would be treating them equally.
It doesn’t

"So you've never felt attraction before love? Never felt sexually attracted to anyone you just met, or even seen across a room or on TV? That's highly unusual, are you asexual?"

@ShodanLives, there pretty much has always been something I love in a person before I feel attracted to them. If not what I actually know of them it would be something they remind me of on some level. And I'm not asexual at all.

Sorry I missed your reply regarding sexual attraction without love. I don't think what you posit is in any way a logical conclusion of anything that's been discussed so far on the thread and I'm afraid I stand by it as being an unusual, unhealthy perspective. Quite unsettlingly extreme, really.

But again I suppose if we take love to mean anything from unconditional devotion to mild fondness, then that changes things.

Sorry I missed your reply regarding sexual attraction without love. I don't think what you posit is in any way a logical conclusion of anything that's been discussed so far on the thread and I'm afraid I stand by it as being an unusual, unhealthy perspective. Quite unsettlingly extreme, really."

What this post? @MeganTheeScallion

I find the idea of sexual attraction with the complete absence of love for the object of attraction (ie absolutely no regard for them/their welfare) deeply troubling. Thus I likened this (attraction with no love/regard) to seeking possession/ ownership/ overpowering. I don't think that is indicative of an abusive/traumatic background. Just a logical step in terms of my thinking.^

What do you think is unusual, unhealthy and unsettlingly extreme?

The fact that someone would seek possession/ownership or overpowerment. Well, yes, that is what I was saying is unsettling.

Or that I connect sexual attraction with the complete absence of love with this. Note I was clear to say complete absence of love / no regard for them or welfare. That is like treating a person as an object. It objectifies them. That is deeply unsettling and it involves sexual attraction with a complete disregard for the other person, absolutely no love for them. Most people have some love for every fellow being they come across, I hope. Most can have enough respect to respect them as human beings with their own needs and feelings. But if that is even absent then that is deeply deeply unsettling in the extreme.

"But again I suppose if we take love to mean anything from unconditional devotion to mild fondness, then that changes things."

@MeganTheeScallion ah, we cross posted there. Yes, I was using love in that sense - from mild fondness upwards.

With someone you just met? Or maybe even haven't met? That's really weird.

That's me, @ShodanLives...walking weirdo! If you read my posts you might infer correctly I have an amount of love and respect for everyone. (Even those I disagree with.😉)

@echoesacrosstheether aha! Fair play then, I think I understand a LOT more of your perspective now, thank you. Glad I checked!

@MeganTheeScallion

Phew! Pleased to clear that up.

Not really the same as falling in love. That tends to take time, whereas sexual attraction is often instantaneous.

"Not really the same as falling in love. That tends to take time, whereas sexual attraction is often instantaneous."

@ShodanLives, you don't believe in love at first sight then? I loved my DH the moment I met him. We've been together for over 30 years and married for over 20.

I even told one of my friends I thought he was the man I would marry shortly after I met him.

Not really. How can you be in love someone you've only just met? If it happens it's sure as shit less common than attraction at first sight, which you find so disturbing.

"Not really. How can you be in love someone you've only just met? If it happens it's sure as shit less common than attraction at first sight, which you find so disturbing."

@ShodanLives never mind how- it just happened. If it was simply attraction there was no way I would have been even thinking about marriage in the very early stages (weeks) We were still at university. Pretty young with our whole lives ahead of us. I'd had several failed relationships before then.

@ShodanLives
And it is attraction in the absence of any love I find disturbing, as I said earlier. This would be the kind of biological urge which is pursued with all disregard for the other party. Thankfully most people have some control over their biological urges otherwise our lives would be pretty horrible.

But the vast majority of people, maybe everyone except you experience attraction before love. That's not disturbing, it's biology.