Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

[Sausagenbacon]

and why does Justin Welby bother with her?

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage

She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her.

I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it.

I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

"Given that there are places where people are ostracised, beaten or even executed for being gay I doubt the reason they dont magically nake themselves straight is because their life would be harder, or because they just don't want it enough. That's quite insulting."

@ShodanLives, it is if you want to take offence.

When we fall in love we want what we desire. We live and believe it. We cannot love unwillingly - it cannot be forced. If we were to choose just to serve our own self interest it would preclude loving, wouldn't it?

So it's possibly a bit of a paradox.

Love cannot be forced. To love we have to be willing. We therefore love of our own free will.

But do we choose to fall in love? Do we choose to hate?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. If someone is gay and in a situation where being gay could be fatal and changing was as simple as wanting it enough, why wouldn't they? And you're claiming that they don't change because it's too hard and they want an easier life even though it could literally mean the gallows? That sounds a lot like victim blaming.

What a load of waffle.

"That sounds a lot like victim blaming."

@ShodanLives, as a Christian that accusation is just too ironic! Christ was crucified because of His love for us! Do you think I blame the same God that I worship?

"What a load of waffle"

@ShodanLives, it saddens me you feel like that.

You seem to be saying that people who are persecuted for their sexuality could change if they wanted to enough. How is that not victim blaming?

Of course love can't be forced. Nor do we choose to fall in love. That's just nonsense. Your last few posts are very unclear.

@ShodanLives and @pointythings I think you would get my perspective more if you had a quick look at the Cognitive Dissonance thread I started on this board.

"You seem to be saying that people who are persecuted for their sexuality could change if they wanted to enough. How is that not victim blaming?"

@ShodanLives, it's not because I am not saying that. I am saying it is possible sexuality can evolve and develop in somebody's lifetime. It is self defining and as they believe it be. No one can say it can't change. No one can say whether they choose it or not apart from themselves. It is self defining.

Side note: sexuality isn't always about love. There's more to it than that, isn't there?

Words like "evolve" and "develop" might imply that there's an 'improvement' being made there. That someone is 'progressing' from one, less good state, towards an 'improved' state of being.

@MeganTheeScallion, good point. What do you think the distinction is? I'm fuzzy about that one myself.

Not used intentionally for that effect @MeganTheeScallion. I attached no value judgement to those words.

So why would someone choose to have a sexual orientation they could be persecuted for?

"So why would someone choose to have a sexual orientation they could be persecuted for?"

@ShodanLives because they have fallen in love?

...And why would they do that?

@ShodanLives, you tell me. There are many reasons to love.

You're the one making these outlandish claims. If falling in love is a choice, why would someone chose to fall on love with someone when it could get them killed?

@echoesacrosstheether but being attracted to someone is not a choice. It is something that happens to you. Why is that so hard for you to understand? I am probably unusual in that I have never once been attracted to a female. A substantial majority of the people I know aren't like that - they're 90/10, 30/70, 60/40 etc. But none of that is a choice, it is just how they are.

'If falling in love is a choice, why would someone chose to fall on love with someone when it could get them killed?'

@ShodanLives, I didn't say it is a choice. I didn't say sexual orientation is a choice. I said it is a choice if you believe it is a choice and live life this way. If you don't believe it is a choice then there is no choice to be made.

@pointythings, well then it's not a choice for you. It's not hard for me to understand.

I said it is a choice if you believe it is a choice and live life this way.

Well that's nonsense, because that is about belief. And that is completely irrelevant when it comes to sexual orientation.

That makes no sense. It's either a choice or it's not. I personally have never thought "I think ill find that person attractive" or "I think I'll fall in love with that person" and had it happen, and I've never heard of anyone who has. And there are times where I definitely would have changed my sexuality if I ciuld, believe me. If it works like that for you you must be very unusual.

Who do you know who can change their sexual orientation at will, and why do only some people have this power?