Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

[Sausagenbacon]

and why does Justin Welby bother with her?

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage

She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her.

I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it.

I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

Consciously? You think people can pray away the gay?

@ShodanLives, I believe whatever can be done subconsciously can be done consciously, potentially. But I don't know anyone who has or who has even wanted to.

I'm not so sure it can be done consciously. The fallout for people who have been through conversion therapy makes it clear that even if you do try it, it's immensely psychologically damaging. I also don't think it is possible to go into conversion therapy without coercion - whether that is coercion from your parents/family/church/wider community or coercion from within stemming from the way you have been raised to think of your same sex attraction as sinful and wrong. Someone who is fully happy and at peace with themselves isn't going to want to make that change.

So no, it can't be done in any meaningful way (i.e. a way that does not harm the individual).

"I'm not so sure it can be done consciously. The fallout for people who have been through conversion therapy makes it clear that even if you do try it, it's immensely psychologically damaging. I also don't think it is possible to go into conversion therapy without coercion - whether that is coercion from your parents/family/church/wider community or coercion from within stemming from the way you have been raised to think of your same sex attraction as sinful and wrong. Someone who is fully happy and at peace with themselves isn't going to want to make that change."

@pointythings, as I stressed before coercion is obviously wrong and pointless. I do think changing oneself consciously is as potentially possible as changing subconsciously. People can be amazing at this. Look at how focussed some Buddhist monks, martial arts experts or athletes can be. But yes, you have to want to and there has to be a reason for someone to want it.

There has never been any kind of evidence of conversion therapy working.

@echoesacrosstheether you really can't compare someone's desire to undertake a spiritual journey or become a great athlete with a desire to change sexual orientation - because the latter is rooted in self-loathing and that self-loathing is pretty much always imposed on the person by people around them, motivated by religion. This means that some form of coercion, whether exgternal or internalised, is always present in conversion therapy. Which is why the outcomes are so bad.

"@echoesacrosstheether you really can't compare someone's desire to undertake a spiritual journey or become a great athlete with a desire to change sexual orientation - because the latter is rooted in self-loathing and that self-loathing is pretty much always imposed on the person by people around them, motivated by religion. This means that some form of coercion, whether exgternal or internalised, is always present in conversion therapy. Which is why the outcomes are so bad."

I get that it often is be the way you say but I also think that there is the potentiality for it not to be. I believe that we have huge potentiality to develop and change in all sorts of ways and would not like to set limits on that. But absolutely, yes, I think force and coercion does cause damage. Really, coercion needs to be out of the picture, generally, when we talk about success in any context.

Last post @pointythings

@ShodanLives, I'm not claiming conversion therapy does work at all.

Well then how does one go about changing their sexual orientation?

@ShodanLives, for example, if someone had a proclivity for something quite dangerous I'd like to think there was hope that they could change.

All I'm doing here is not placing a value judgement over the potentiality for change. I'm just saying there is a potentiality for change regardless of whether any particular change is warranted or wanted.

'Well then how does one go about changing their sexual orientation?'

@ShodanLives, I'd imagine they'd have to want it, live it and believe it. And not doubt it. Like anything really.

@ShodanLives
But I don't think many people would see the point of it.

All I'm doing here is not placing a value judgement over the potentiality for change.

I think we need to be very careful with that. Change that springs from socially engendered self loathing should not be encouraged because we know that conversion therapy carries the major risk of serious mental ill health as one of its outcomes. Not all change is created equal.

"I think we need to be very careful with that. Change that springs from socially engendered self loathing should not be encouraged because we know that conversion therapy carries the major risk of serious mental ill health as one of its outcomes. Not all change is created equal."

@pointythings, but you don't discourage something by denying the possibility of it. Best see it from all angles and see clearly what exactly is problematic ie coercion and force.

Well, your 'possibility' is hypothetical at best. All the research evidence suggests that conversion therapy does not work and causes serious harm, so right now as things stand, that kind of change is in fact not possible.

We currently cannot separate religious coercion from divine intervention, so on that side the possibility of change is a negative and not to be encouraged until we can be certain that we have a therapy that is (within the parameters of statistical significance and what constitutes medically acceptable risk in term of cost/benefit) safe, we should abstain.

And I think I really need to stress I am not really talking about any conversion therapy here. There are far too many vested interests in that. However, I think it is wrong to declare all people's sexuality as immutable and unchanging is wrong. It generally is what they believe it is - I think. It is up to the individual to define their own sexuality.

Last post @pointythings & @ShodanLives

I'm not sure it's possible to resolve this question without conducting the kind of research that would not pass ethics, so chances are we will never know. It's a bit like Popper's white swans/black swans theory of science: you cannot disprove that all swans are white, you can only prove that not all swans are white at the moment you see a black one.

The problem here is that it is impossible to prove that previously gay people can become straight because we cannot prove that someone is gay except via self report, and in addition we have the confounding factor of bisexuality as well. We can also not prove that someone is permanently straight, for the same reasons.

@pointythings so hence I am open to the possibility of change / new information coming to light. I tend to view the world a bit like Popper in that respect.

Where's your evidence that this is possible? And if it is, why don't the people living in countries where gay people are persecuted do this?

@ShodanLives, I just don't think it is impossible. Although wanting it, living it and believing it, without doubting is a tall order hence people in practice don't simply change just because it would make life easier for them.

Some people don't even believe in free will. So deciding what they have a desire for and living and believing as such is going to be doubly difficult for them.

Thing is I do believe in free will, and I suspect that the reason why people who are gay and bisexual don't change is that because deep down where it matters, they don't want to. They love who they love. The heart wants what it wants. That's why we need to give asylum to gay people fleeing countries where gay people are persecuted and criminalised.

I agree @pointythings.

Given that there are places where people are ostracised, beaten or even executed for being gay I doubt the reason they dont magically nake themselves straight is because their life would be harder, or because they just don't want it enough. That's quite insulting.