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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Struggling with Hell

371 replies

ksw0203 · 04/11/2021 15:17

Hi everyone,

I'm a christian but I'm really struggling with the idea of eternal punishment for unbelievers, it just seems very cruel and unlike the God I think I know. Has anyone else struggled with this or has any parts of scripture that could suggest something other than this? I know that Judaism and some sects of early Christianity viewed hell as a temporary punishment that sort of 'refined' people but don't know how reliable this is?

Thanks!

OP posts:
MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 17:31

@mordinvasnormandy

So a prophecy that was in the Bible came true... according to the Bible.
They are historical accounts mordinvasnormandy. Of people that lived and civilisations that existed. The Jewish people are not a mythical race! The Apostles existed and birth of Christianity is a historic fact, that’s why there are Jews and Christians today.
CathyorClaire · 12/11/2021 17:32

The sins (evil thoughts, intentions, words and actions) or goodness that are contained there will be the basis of judgement

Doesn't seem very just or loving that some escape the pit of fire with good works while others doing equally good work get to fry just because they've had the chance to hear a convoluted and contradictory 2000 year old story especially when the worst of crims can repent right up to the moment of death and join the heavenly party.

nancybotwinbloom · 12/11/2021 17:38

@Annasgirl

If you let go of all religion, as I have done (raised a Catholic), you will never again have to struggle with the inconsistencies of them. Hint : the inconsistency is because they are made up, depending on the needs of the men in charge at the time.

Read the book Sapiens - it will change your world view. (he has no particular interest in promoting or denigrating religion, he just explains the origins of all of our belief systems, since the earliest empires).

@Annasgirl

I have this on my shelf of to read books.

Is it really heavy going?

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 12/11/2021 17:42

@mordinvasnormandy

So a prophecy that was in the Bible came true... according to the Bible.
Exactly.

How do we know that stuff wasn't amended along the way in order to 'fulfil the prophecies'. Also, aren't there bits of the Bible hidden by the Catholic Church and all that as well?

My view is its amazing what can happen when enough human beings want to believe something is true and the circumstances are right.

Take the village of Knock in the West of Ireland. 200 or so years ago it was just a tiny rural irish village, the usual poverty and difficult life of a person living in that part of Ireland at the time. All the inhabitants devout Catholics. Then, one rainy night, apparently a load of people from the village see an apparition of Mary round the back of the church. God chooses Mary to appear in this tiny village in Ireland! Word spreads and people start travelling from all over to come and visit, stories start emerging that people are visiting Knock and then being healed from terrible illnesses, the church is extended, shops selling an abundance religious memorabilia open, a huge basilica is built, hotels open, an airport is built, the Pope comes to visit........

Did those people really see a vision of Mary? Or did they want to believe they had seen one, told each other that must be what happened, dismissed each others doubts, egged each other on.

I actually love Knock. There is definitely something about the place and I find it very peaceful. But I am also fascinated by the origins of how it came to be what it is now, and what actually happened that night all those years ago!

mordinvasnormandy · 12/11/2021 18:19

So show me the historical evidence that things happened in exactly the way the bible suggested that can't be explained in other ways.

depremesnil · 12/11/2021 18:21

@MissingSummertime

I didn’t promote it. There are many political threads on MN for political debates, this thread is a discussion about the existence or not of hell.

I believe it (I believe the bible is true) so AM promoting the way of staying clear of it and reasons why the bible can be considered reliable.

You linked to it and suggested posters read it, that's promoting it.

It's a disgusting publication run by a disgusting individual. Would you happily post a link to an explicitly racist publication if it supported your world view?

It's people like Franklin Graham that turn people away from Christianity.

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 18:37

Absolutely, I believe the bible is true. I have encountered Jesus both personally and in His Word. It is settled in my heart forever and is a peace that is deep and living, surpassing every storm I’ve been through in life.

Sceptical and doubting despise of God and the bible is commonplace in our society. It has been the case for thousands of years and will continue until the end. Sceptical cynicism is the order of the day now more than ever, with all the false claims, deceptions, fake news, con artists and just sheer abundance of evil around in the world.

But, what will it cost you to hold Jesus in the same dismissive sceptical view? Even the discipline Thomas who walked, talked, slept, ate and drank with Jesus and witnessed his miracles doubted until he saw the risen Christ. Even then, Jesus told him to put his hand in his side to feel his wound to satisfy himself that He was real. Such is human doubt! Jesus then said ‘Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed’

John 20:24-29
“4Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”

So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

28And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

29Jesus said to him, [f]“Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed.Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 18:48

depremesnil, honestly you are seeing something here that was not intended. I found this article with a quick search - had I known it would haves cause such upset I would have chosen another that gave information about the progress of missionary efforts. Please be assured I am not promoting this particular publisher.,I am promoting Jesus and his teaching according to the bible.

Now can we please move on now? Debate me on the subject please. So who do you say Jesus is?

depremesnil · 12/11/2021 19:03

@MissingSummertime

depremesnil, honestly you are seeing something here that was not intended. I found this article with a quick search - had I known it would haves cause such upset I would have chosen another that gave information about the progress of missionary efforts. Please be assured I am not promoting this particular publisher.,I am promoting Jesus and his teaching according to the bible.

Now can we please move on now? Debate me on the subject please. So who do you say Jesus is?

Debate me? Who are you, Ben Shapiro?

What I think Jesus is or was is hardly relevant to the OP, who is not being helped by your scaremongering ramblings or links to homophobic magazines.

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 20:02

Lol this whole forum is a debate!

If everyone shared the same views, the threads would be very short.

I think who Jesus is absolutely central to the topic, as he is claimed by millions of Christians and Messianic Jews to be saviour and the only way to eternal life.

CathyorClaire · 12/11/2021 21:27

Sceptical and doubting despise of God and the bible is commonplace in our society

Multiple biblical contradictions and the blatant hi-jacking of older festivals and mythical stories might have something to do with that.

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 21:39

@PeachesPumpkin

I don’t think hell is a fiery pit, I think it is separation from God - nothingness. I think after death you meet God and you choose to go to heaven or to reject God. Anyone can choose to accept God and go to heaven, and I think when faced with God’s love and forgiveness everyone will choose heaven. I think no one would choose hell.
The choice is here, in this life PeachesPumpkin, there is no scriptural backing for a choice of heaven or hell after death.

Jesus gave an example in Luke 16: 19-31, of Lazarus and the rich man:

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”

The rich man was not able to cross over the ‘huge gulf’ separating hell from heaven. If the rich man had been given a choice after death, he obviously wouldn’t have chosen hell, no one would. If there was a choice after death ( which bypasses all need for forgiveness of sins by the way, and therefore negates the whole purpose of the cross) Jesus would not have needed to give grave warnings about it, not would he have needed to give his life on the cross, if there was nothing we needed saving from.

Madhairday · 12/11/2021 22:31

@CathyorClaire

Sceptical and doubting despise of God and the bible is commonplace in our society

Multiple biblical contradictions and the blatant hi-jacking of older festivals and mythical stories might have something to do with that.

Hey CathyorClaire (your username takes me right back into my youth - Jackie mag IIRC?) - I don't think there is any evidence for Christianity 'hijacking' old myth systems (if anything, the other way round in terms of Mithraism etc - fascinating history to be read in all of these in Tom Holland's works. There's an argument certainly for the dates of Easter and Christmas to have been adapted from older festivals, but not the emphases of them. I see these claims often on the internet regarding older myth systems, but the claims are often based on a whole load of debunked misinformation spread in the late 20th century and somehow still believed (the nature of misinformation I guess.) Applying some robust historicity gives us a different picture: Christianity was completely unique. The early Christian Jews would in any case have been horrified at the mystery religions and their practices, they would certainly never have built some kind of convoluted system upon the beliefs they found as anathema - it would have been utterly unthinkable. There's so much good evidence for the NT and the development of early Christianity, and a proper reading of it immediately detaches any kind of meshing of it with old myths.
MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 23:31

Sorry this is lengthy, but thought I would add in an excerpt from the book “23 Minutes in Hell’ by Bill Wiese, as it encapsulates a lot of the themes and thoughts discussed here, (disputed, denied and accepted) I have deliberately not included his actual stated experiences in hell, I don’t think anybody is ready to hear that:

‘Chapter 6; Can “good” people go to hell?’

‘You might bethinking,AmIagood
enough person to go to heaven? Yes, Ithink I am. Who goes to hell? Onlybad people, really bad people likeHitler, Stalin, murderers, rapists, andso forth. People who kill little children.Those are the really bad people.

This sounds reasonable to mostof us. But what standard is used todetermine if we are “good enough”to go to heaven and another is “badenough” to go to hell? Whatcriteria determines our eternalfate? Could it be based on a higherstandard? This is something we allneed to know for certain. What authority can give us definitive answers?

The Bible has much to say aboutthis widely misunderstood subject.Perhaps you have your ownopinion about the realities of hell.
Are you willing to risk your eternityon your own opinion? Since the Biblehas undergone such intense scrutiny, thorough investigation andthousands of years of testing, youmay want to at least see what ithas to say about this matter.

The qualification for entrance intoheaven (or hell) is not based onhow we compare to others. Youmay look pretty good to yourself,
but what if you were looked atthrough the eyes of one who is sin-less? What if you were judged notonly by your actions but also byyour thoughts? Would that make
you a little more uncomfortable? Ifwe are honest, we will admit thatour actions alone would condemnus.A girl was looking at a beautifulhillside covered with lush, green
grass. She noticed a herd of sheepstanding on the hill. They looked sowhite and clean, especially againstthe dark green grass. The girl wentto bed, and the next morning she
walked outside to look at the sheep. However, it had snowed all night.The sheep were still there, but now,against the unblemished whitesnow, they looked dingy, evendirty.¹Inthesameway,our“good-
ness” when compared to God’sstandard for good falls far, farshort.

Or perhaps you view your actionsand thoughts in the same wayDanny viewed his parking tickets.RayComfort,inhisbook‘HowtoLive Forever…Without Being
Religious’,explainswhathappened tohisfriendDanny.²“Whenhetoldme that he once went to prison forfailing to pay parking tickets, Iasked, ‘Why didn’t you just paythem?’ He answered, ‘They werejust parking tickets; it was no bigdeal.’ Then he told me that the police arrived at his home at 4:00
a.m., put him in a big black bus,and took him to Los Angeles County court. As he stood before thejudge, he said, ‘Your Honor, Ibrought $700 with me to pay thetickets and to cover the court costs.’The judge said, ‘Mr. Goodall, I’mgoing to save you all that money.You are going to jail!’” Danny was terrified.His big mistake was that he trivialized his crimes by thinking thatthey were “just” parking tickets, andhad so deceived himself. Had heknown the judge’s ruling (that hewould go to prison), he would havemade things right between himself and the law beforehand.

Most of us realize that we havebroken God’s law— the Ten Commandments, but it’s no big deal, everyone does it. So, let me ask you a few questionsabout the law you have broken and see if it is a big deal. Have you everlied? You say, “Yes. But they were
only white lies. They were nothing
serious.” Have you ever stolensomething? You say, “Yes, but onlylittle things.” Can you see what youare doing? You are trivializing yourcrimes, and like Danny, are deceiving yourself. What you are doingis saying that you haven’t actuallysinned and the Bible warns, “Hewho says he has no sin deceives
himself.” If you havelied or stolen anything (the value of theitem stolen is irrelevant), thejudge’s ruling is stated in Rev. 21:8 “All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns withfire and brimstone”You say, “I don’t believe in hell.” That’s like someonesaying to the judge, “I don’t believein jail.” What we believe or don’t believe doesn’t change realities. Nothiefwillenterheaven.Notone.³
Now look at this: Jesus said, “Who-
ever looks at a woman to lust for
her has already committed adultery
with her in his heart” (Matt. 5:28).
Have you ever looked with lust?
Then you have committed adultery
as far as God is concerned. Have
you used God’s name in vain? If
you have, then you have used His
holy name as a curse word to express disgust. That’s called blasphemy, and it’s very serious inGod’s sight. (*) So if you have been honestenough to admit that you have broken those commandments, you would be found a lying, thieving, blasphemous adulterer at heart on the day of Judgment. We would all be found guilty as we have all broken God’s commandments and fallen short of his perfect standard. Just as Danny was guilty of his crimes, we are all guilty of breaking God’s law and hell is our just sentence. Sowhat are you going to do? How canyou make things right between you
and the law?

Further, keep in mind that a goodjudge must carry out justice.There was a judge in a town thathad a case brought to him one day.A girl was speeding in her carthrough an intersection that hadsigns posted warning drivers todrive slowly and watch for blind,disabled children crossing thestreet. A police officer stopped hervehicle and gave her a ticket. Thejudge set the fine at the maximum—$25,000. Since the girl was
unable to pay the fine, the bailiffprepared to take her away to jail.Just then, the judge did somethingvery strange. He got up from his
bench, went over to the bailiff, andpaid the $25,000 for her! Peoplewondered what was going on; onlylater did they find out that the girlwas his daughter. Even though itwas his daughter, the judge still imposed the maximum fine. He had tocarry out justice. However, his lovefor his daughter would not allowhim to leave her in thatpredicament.⁵In just the same manner, God didnot leave us in a hopeless state concerning our eternity. Just as thejudge paid the fine for his daughter,so Jesus paid the penaltyfor all of our sins. Jesus was brutally beaten, severely whipped, and nailedto a cross where He suffered anexcruciating death. He paid the finein His life’s blood for the crimesthat we committed: “God demonstrates His own love toward us, inthat “while we were still sinners,Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8). ThenHe rose from the dead and defeated
death.

Ray continues, “Now here’s thedifference between being religiousand being a Christian. There aremillions of people on this earth whohave never seen the serious natureof sin. They are in the dark aboutthe judge’s ruling. They have noidea that they will end up in hell forcrimes that they consider trivial.
They know that they may have to faceGod after death, but they think thattheir religious works (like Dannywith his $700) will buy their way outof any trouble in which they may
find themselves if theytrivialize their sin, they will deceivethemselves into thinking that theycan work their way into heaven by
their religious works. But it is futile. God Himself has thrownus a life rope in Jesus Christ. He is the only One that can save us fromdeath and hell. But we must let goof our own efforts to save ourselvesand take hold of the rope, that’s when we find peace withGod.”⁶

The Bible says, “For by grace youhave been saved through faith, andthat not of yourselves; it is the giftof God, not of works, least anyoneboast” (Eph. 2:8–9).You still may wonder how a goodand loving God could send someone to that horrific place called hell.To put it plainly, He doesn’t. It isyour rejection of the provision(Jesus) for your sin that sends youthere. We all have a free will, and wecan choose not to repent. (Repentmeans “to turn or change.”) In
Deuteronomy 30:19, God says, “Ihave set before you life and death,blessing and cursing; thereforechooselife”(emphasisadded).Jesussaid, “I am the way, the truth, andthe life: no one comes to the Father
except through Me” (John 14:6).

Will you believe Jesus? Or will you
reject Him?

By choosing to do nothing, you
have already made a choice. You
choose death and hell eternal.There are no “fence” positions. InJohn 3:18, Jesus says, “He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he hasnot believed in the name of the onlybegotten Son of God.” I am horrified at the thought of anyone spend-
ing an eternity in hell. Please don’ttake this lightly, but believe what theBible has to say. It is your eternityyou are dealing with.Some may think that they havedone too many things wrong in thepast and that God could not forgivethem. The Bible clearly says that
God has plenty of mercy foreveryone. Psalm 86:5 says, “ForYou, Lord, are good, and ready toforgive, and abundant in mercy to
all those who call upon You.” Hewill forgive all of your sins the moment you ask, and He will rememberthemnomore.⁷ToreceiveJesusas your Savior, you can pray some-
thing along these lines:

Dear God, I confess I am a sinner.Thank You that Jesus took mypunishment upon Himself whenHe died on the cross for my sins,and then rose from the dead, defeating death. Today I repent andplace my trust in Jesus Christalone for my salvation. In Jesus’
name I pray. Amen.

If you have prayed this shortprayer, then you have made the wisest decision you will ever make.Get a bible and start reading, starting
with the Gospel of John. Find aBible-believing church to attend and go and tell someone what youhave done, as Jesus said to do inMatthew 10:32. Pursue Him, and
you will fulfill your purpose in life.’

(*) just to add, in Matthew 5:22 Jesus also taught that to be angry with someone is to murder them in your heart. So God equates hateful anger to murder which is a sin. Who hasn’t expressed anger towards someone in their life at some point?

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 23:35

Sorry the formatting has messed up and missed lots of spaces between words for some reason(!)

CathyorClaire · 13/11/2021 11:46

the claims are often based on a whole load of debunked misinformation spread in the late 20th century

Jackie mag,yep Grin

Back to the above. There's plenty of evidence showing parallels between the stories surrounding Jesus and those of other gods of the ancient world:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_comparative_mythology

Sudokuzebra · 13/11/2021 19:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

glimpsing · 13/11/2021 20:16

I think there's levels of believing in Jesus. Do you read the accounts and agree with his actions? What he said? Do you not read them but your own life view would be very similar? Would you come across his views and agree with them?

It's a starting point. Beyond the level of believing everything holistically why not try with bits?

CathyorClaire · 13/11/2021 20:33

@glimpsing

I think there's levels of believing in Jesus. Do you read the accounts and agree with his actions? What he said? Do you not read them but your own life view would be very similar? Would you come across his views and agree with them?

It's a starting point. Beyond the level of believing everything holistically why not try with bits?

That's not what the bible says though.

It's all or nothing and time critical when the son of God is mooted to return like a thief in the night.

TeachesOfPeaches · 13/11/2021 20:34

There is no god. HTH

glimpsing · 13/11/2021 20:41

It's all or nothing and time critical when the son of God is mooted to return like a thief in the night.

Is it ? Faith grows. I'm no expert but faith has a starting point.🤷‍♀️

glimpsing · 13/11/2021 20:44

I mean I started randomly pointing to a bible page and getting a relaxant answer,...

glimpsing · 13/11/2021 20:44

Relevant!

speakout · 13/11/2021 20:48

I don't think anything jesus said was particularly groundbreaking.

Love your neighbour- treat others well?

No shit sherlock.
Any stable community uses these ideas to function.
Altruism is a useful way of living, it benefits the tribe, and ultimately the individual.
And not just in humans.
Primates, elephants, wolves, even bees and ants use cooperative methods to make things work.
Sapien is no different- and we are only just another species, nothing particularly special.

I don't think this jesus guy- if he even existed said anything exeptional.
It has been old had for eons.

glimpsing · 13/11/2021 20:51

Everything doesn't have to be exceptional. If you agree, you agree. Imagine for one moment we are created in God's image, there is a remnant in all of us. If you can't you still might agree with what Jesus stood for.