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Philosophy/religion

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Struggling with Hell

371 replies

ksw0203 · 04/11/2021 15:17

Hi everyone,

I'm a christian but I'm really struggling with the idea of eternal punishment for unbelievers, it just seems very cruel and unlike the God I think I know. Has anyone else struggled with this or has any parts of scripture that could suggest something other than this? I know that Judaism and some sects of early Christianity viewed hell as a temporary punishment that sort of 'refined' people but don't know how reliable this is?

Thanks!

OP posts:
speakout · 12/11/2021 11:14

But I believe Christ is God. So God in the form of Christ willingly sacrificed Himself.*

Yeah, sacrificed himself to himself.
Makes perfect sense.

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 11:16

mordinvasnormandy. I am not judging you as a person, but you have done nothing but mock and judge me. Feel free, I have been verbally abused for my faith all my life, as have countless other Christians. Many of which are paying the ultimate price for their faith with facing life imprisonment or death.

So I say again, judge me all you like, only judge Jesus’s own words for yourself and chose whether to believe them or reject them.

speakout · 12/11/2021 11:16

*If your friend was about to stumble off the edge of a cliff, would you not try to pull them back?

If hell was a physical place we could visit, I would stand there day and night to pulling people back from the brink.
*

Highlights christan arrogance.

Because in real life that cliff is an actual danger.

Your hell is unproven, you are trying to save people from something that may not even exist.

What if you are wrong? Or has your faith blinkered you so completely that is not even an option?

speakout · 12/11/2021 11:20

But please don't compare yourself to people who actually save lives. They do amazing things. You preach at people on the Internet.

Well said.
Again highlights christian arrogance.

mordinvasnormandy · 12/11/2021 11:23

@MissingSummertime

mordinvasnormandy. I am not judging you as a person, but you have done nothing but mock and judge me. Feel free, I have been verbally abused for my faith all my life, as have countless other Christians. Many of which are paying the ultimate price for their faith with facing life imprisonment or death.

So I say again, judge me all you like, only judge Jesus’s own words for yourself and chose whether to believe them or reject them.

I am not mocking you. I am judging you, as I would judge anyone who believes others deserve to suffer for not sharing their beliefs.
MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 11:53

Speakout and mordinvasnormandy

I never said people deserved to go to hell, only that it is a real place that Jesus warns us about in the bible.

It is easy to judge me, call me arrogant or whatever but I am not here preaching my own message. I am pointing to Jesus and what he said.

I am a straight up bible believing Christian, you can say whatever you like or assume about me. It is easy to tear down another person, but I note you are quiet on saying who you believe Jesus to be.

So who do you say Jesus is?

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 11:57

I was an atheist before my personal encounter with the risen Christ.

ohfook · 12/11/2021 12:05

@onelittlefrog

I have always felt like the idea of God and the idea of Hell are pretty much mutually exclusive. But I'm not religious, so there may be subtleties that I don't get!
My mum is very religious and she believes almost the same as you ie hell as we perceive it to be can't exist alongside a loving god.

My ex mil was also very religious and she believed very deeply in the rapture. That the antichrist will come but everyone will be in awe of him and won't see him for what he is. That there'll be some bar code or something we have to get in our skin in order to survive (pay for food/serve as idetc) and once you accept that you'll never get through the gates of heaven. The thought of all that terrified me but also I thought it was a pretty nasty trick. Surely inadvertently accepting the mark of the devil because you think it's a vaccine or a form of id or whatever isn't an evil act so why would that bar you from heaven. Anyway long story short I prefer my mums version that god is forgiveness to the terrifying rapture version!

ohfook · 12/11/2021 12:09

@silveryslade

I believe that in heaven there is complete unity with God in harmony. There is no room for egos. Anything which has held onto which goes against God has to be let go of otherwise there couldn't be complete unity and harmony.

Hell is just the opposite. It is a place of ego with resulting divisions, conflicts and disharmony.

Hell literally just sounds like earth tbh.
mordinvasnormandy · 12/11/2021 12:31

I never said people deserved to go to hell, only that it is a real place that Jesus warns us about in the bible.

You say that God sends non-Christians to hell, presumably you agree with God?

So who do you say Jesus is?

Possibly a historical figure.

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 13:17

Ok speakout, I 100% challenge the ‘zero evidence’ claim about Christianity. The Christian faith is evidenced based on verified historical manuscripts. The New Testament has been preserved in more manuscripts than any other ancient work of literature, with over 5,800 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts catalogued, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Slavic, Gothic, Ethiopic, Coptic and Armenian. Even non-Christian ancient Roman reports and Jewish scholar historian Flavius Josephus are examples of historical accounts OUTSIDE of the gospels and as such are not biased towards Jesus and his teachings. They do however cross reference his life and teachings and some of the miracles people witnessed.

Christianity is not based on blind faith, but on an unparalleled weight of verifiable historical manuscript records. Also in the lives of his believers, through god’s holy Spirit which is a personal relationship and walk with him. The bible records include Jesus appearing personally to the Apostles in the days following his death and resurrection. On one occasion he was seen by more than 500 people! (1 Corinthians 15:6). People have tried to argue Jesus never existed, but he is historically verified and this argument always falls flat. There are many accounts of his life, teaching, death and resurrection both in ancient manuscripts and outside the bible.

Also, If the bible is not true or has just been made up by men, how can it be explained that Jesus’s birth, life, death and resurrection were prophesied HUNDREDS of years before he was born? Men cannot prophesy the future like this, and tell the whole life, death and resurrection of a man who would not be born for hundreds of years in the future, in exact detail. Including the place of his birth, his ministry and the way he would die. See Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. How can this be explained if it is felt the bible is only written by men and not Holy Spirit inspired? Biblical prophesies also extend to other events that happened after they were written too, like the Diaspora (the expelling of the Jewish people from Israel and their worldwide scattering), the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. How about Cyrus king of Persia, who was prophesied to liberate the Jewish people from their Babylonian captivity in the book of Isaiah? (His exact actual name was prophesied!) some 150 years before he entered the frame. And most remarkable is when he did, he fulfilled exactly what had been written of him and liberated the Jews.

That said, it is worth noting that over 90% of bible prophesies have been fulfilled. That leaves Revelations, Daniel and some of the Isiah prophesies. That is basically the ‘end of the age’ Jesus was talking about that precedes his return (it’s coming soon)

depremesnil · 12/11/2021 13:18

@MissingSummertime
He cannot let sin go unpunished, which is why He sent his son to bear the punishment of the whole world so we don’t have to. It is all because of his great love for us.

What is sin? Some people say being gay is a sin, or having an abortion, eating pork, or women speaking back to their husbands. Others disagree. Everybody seems to have different ideas.

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 13:40

If 90% of bible prophesies have been fulfilled, (historically verified) I would call that pretty compelling. That kind of track record should make us stand up and take notice of the bible. There is no other book like it.

I am trusting God for the last 10% also

(that is, end times and the wrapping up of human history).

Sudokuzebra · 12/11/2021 13:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mordinvasnormandy · 12/11/2021 13:57

Most if not all prophecies are vague and can easily b interpreted after he fact. The tend to be more "something bad will happen in the future" If someone said "there will be a fire at 14 High Street, Springfield at 3pm on 20th July 2014" I might be more convinced. Or assume they started the fire themselves.

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 15:28

Hi Sudokuzebra, sorry my reply to you was long winded but what I was getting at was God is just, and I believe He will justly judge in these ( and all) cases. In the bible, especially in Jesus’s teachings and from what I know of God’s character, He puts a lot of import and emphasis on the heart, what is in our hearts. The sins (evil thoughts, intentions, words and actions) or goodness that are contained there will be the basis of judgement. Consider also the multitudes of people that lived and died before Jesus was born. I believe the same applies.

Jesus said, “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come” (Matthew 24:14).

Here’s an interesting article written 10 years ago that predicts that around now or close to this time the Gospel will have reached and be shared with every tribe, tongue and remote people groups in the world. I am not saying Jesus will return tomorrow, but He did make the link between everyone getting a chance to hear about him and Him return.
decisionmagazine.com/when-all-the-world-hears/

depremesnil · 12/11/2021 15:40

[quote MissingSummertime]Hi Sudokuzebra, sorry my reply to you was long winded but what I was getting at was God is just, and I believe He will justly judge in these ( and all) cases. In the bible, especially in Jesus’s teachings and from what I know of God’s character, He puts a lot of import and emphasis on the heart, what is in our hearts. The sins (evil thoughts, intentions, words and actions) or goodness that are contained there will be the basis of judgement. Consider also the multitudes of people that lived and died before Jesus was born. I believe the same applies.

Jesus said, “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come” (Matthew 24:14).

Here’s an interesting article written 10 years ago that predicts that around now or close to this time the Gospel will have reached and be shared with every tribe, tongue and remote people groups in the world. I am not saying Jesus will return tomorrow, but He did make the link between everyone getting a chance to hear about him and Him return.
decisionmagazine.com/when-all-the-world-hears/[/quote]
Decision Magazine, owned by the vile Franklin Graham and promotes conversion therapy. Interesting is not what I'd call it.

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 15:58

This article isn’t written by Franklin Graham. And I’m not saying every Christian preacher has completely everything right either, just that it was interesting, given Sudukuzrbra’s question that it was thought that every remote tribe and people group would have an opportunity to hear about Jesus by around now or close to around now. Jesus made the link between this happening and his coming again (the end coming)

depremesnil · 12/11/2021 16:00

The magazine is run by Franklin Graham, and regularly promotes homophobia. What's next, are you going to link to a thread on Stormfront?

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 16:24

@mordinvasnormandy

Most if not all prophecies are vague and can easily b interpreted after he fact. The tend to be more "something bad will happen in the future" If someone said "there will be a fire at 14 High Street, Springfield at 3pm on 20th July 2014" I might be more convinced. Or assume they started the fire themselves.
But mordinvasnormandy, that is exactly what happened in the case of Cyrus king of Persia! I cited it here as a good example of the reliability of the bible (God inspired) as it is an ‘impossible’ prophesy being fulfilled. It’s not like the Jews had insider knowledge about the Persian King, it was 150 years before he came in the scene!

Please explain to me how this happened then?

And even more so the numerous Old Testament prophesies about Jesus, hundreds of years before he was born. Even the town of his birth, the manner of his birth, his life, ministry, death and resurrection.

mordinvasnormandy · 12/11/2021 16:34

So a prophecy that was in the Bible came true... according to the Bible.

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 16:41

@depremesnil

The magazine is run by Franklin Graham, and regularly promotes homophobia. What's next, are you going to link to a thread on Stormfront?
I found an article about the far reaching progress of missionary efforts and you turn it into a political debate! I don’t know how far and wide the places are that have been reached with the gospel message, which is why I looked it up and found this particular article to try and help answer the question Sudokuzebra had.

I think you’re just trying to pick a fight for the sake of it depremesnil, why don’t you engage the thread about the topic we’re discussing instead? I won’t be engaging in petty accusations and goading I’m afraid.

depremesnil · 12/11/2021 17:07

I'm not picking a fight, I just don't appreciate people promoting deeply homophobic publications.

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 17:23

I didn’t promote it. There are many political threads on MN for political debates, this thread is a discussion about the existence or not of hell.

I believe it (I believe the bible is true) so AM promoting the way of staying clear of it and reasons why the bible can be considered reliable.

speakout · 12/11/2021 17:31

MissingSummertime

Is all the bible true?

Talking snakes?

Noah's ark? How did the they take all the animals on the ark? Who hosted the pubic lice? Did they have a cool zone for the actic animals? Swamp region for the amphibians? What about all the food for the 45,000 species of spider? Did they have to take meat for the big cats?

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