Struggling with Hell

[ksw0203]

Hi everyone,

I'm a christian but I'm really struggling with the idea of eternal punishment for unbelievers, it just seems very cruel and unlike the God I think I know. Has anyone else struggled with this or has any parts of scripture that could suggest something other than this? I know that Judaism and some sects of early Christianity viewed hell as a temporary punishment that sort of 'refined' people but don't know how reliable this is?

Thanks!

@glimpsing

It's all or nothing and time critical when the son of God is mooted to return like a thief in the night.

Is it ? Faith grows. I'm no expert but faith has a starting point.🤷‍♀️

Apparently best not to spend too long deliberating though. Just in case.

kjvbibletruth.com/2015/11/23/too-late/comment-page-1/

I've not. I'm convinced. But, as I said, it all starts somewhere. There a different interpretations, different journeys of understanding. I hope for church unity. There is still lots which is unresolved, mysterious but faith allows for that. Individuals don't have to know everything just trust in faith.

@glimpsing

I mean I started randomly pointing to a bible page and getting a relaxant answer,...

Bit like generic horoscopes really.

*There is still lots which is unresolved, mysterious.

AKA God's ultimate get-out clause.

Tbh what I don't know, which is a lot, God is omnipotent after all, (there was a whole orthodox schism about it) I just put aside in faith. Not everyone has the brains to think it all through, sheerly on their own brain power. I'll just let God sort that bit out...

Bit like generic horoscopes really.

No, my Daily Devotionals replaced that particular indulgence!

AKA God's ultimate get-out clause.

To be frank, He doesn't need one.

Ah, see I class both as woo.

Especially when all random pins got me was the begats..

Well, even in science there are unknowns, Bayesian analysis accounts for that, along with variables , priors, human analysis etc etc. What's one more risk? There is much more benefit! I've had to live my life through risk. But random pins got me more than begats.

To be frank, He doesn't need one

Not even when he's micro-managing parking spaces, jobs and houses for his followers rather than solving cancer, wars,covid and climate change?

Now what is the mathematical principle of unknown risk promising more benefit than the known risk? Some principle or other. Anyway, it's like that.

Nope.and I'm a cancer survivor.

Stage 3. Although, I forget. Wasn't really listening.

It was more than stage 2 anyway because that was the last tumour which was less than the first lot that was removed.

I went to Catholic school and our priest told us he didn't believe in hell because God loves us, and Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins.
I find that very comforting actually.
How can our understanding of the afterlife ever be perfect until after we die? The Church used to teach that unbaptised babies went to Limbo but then they got rid of that. Jesus said 'let the little children be brought to me' so it makes no sense at all that innocent children would be kept out.
My uncle said you have to have hell for people like Hitler - personally I think if it exists, maybe you go there until you truly repent in your heart, then you can go to heaven.

Jesus said 'let the little children be brought to me' so it makes no sense at all that innocent children would be kept out.

I agree with this. But I believe belief can manifest before we are able to even fully conceptualise or vocalise. John the Baptist leapt in joy in the womb, after all. There is a response, a yearning and reaching we can make towards God.

[quote CathyorClaire]the claims are often based on a whole load of debunked misinformation spread in the late 20th century

Jackie mag,yep

Back to the above. There's plenty of evidence showing parallels between the stories surrounding Jesus and those of other gods of the ancient world:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_comparative_mythology[/quote]
I loved my Jackie mag (now feeling old)

I'm afraid a biased Wiki article doesn't have the last word on the issue of the misinformation spread by certain individuals that took root years ago. There are many more articles, wiki and otherwise that would oppose this view. When we really apply historical method here we do find that there is very little evidence for the origins of christianity being rooted in mystery religions. We have so little historical info about those myth systems, in fact what we do have in terms of anything concrete tends to date from way after the time of Jesus. There was all the stuff about Mithras and Osiris and all those supposed similarities, but I've never seen anything close to robust when it comes to proving this. The Jewish religion in 1st century Palestine and surrounds was as different to such systems as you could get. What would be the reason that some Jewish writers would build a new religion upon the rumours of myths that they so hated with abhorrent practices (child sacrifice, temple slaves etc). It always baffles me that scholars would say that Christianity was derived from such myth systems, but then looking further it's evident that most scholars -including secular scholars - don't think this after all. It's a great example of how misinformation takes root and then spreads despite multiple debunking.

Of course there are surface level similarities in terms of initiation etc but it's the insistence that the Jesus story was created upon the back of these that is the issue.

The secular scholar Bart Ehrman is excellent on this.

If you want to go with a wiki article, try this one - explains some of the issues and how they took root, and the reception by the vast majority of scholars.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jesus_Mysteries

@speakout

I don't think anything jesus said was particularly groundbreaking.

Love your neighbour- treat others well?

No shit sherlock.
Any stable community uses these ideas to function.
Altruism is a useful way of living, it benefits the tribe, and ultimately the individual.
And not just in humans.
Primates, elephants, wolves, even bees and ants use cooperative methods to make things work.
Sapien is no different- and we are only just another species, nothing particularly special.

I don't think this jesus guy- if he even existed said anything exeptional.
It has been old had for eons.

You're saying that with very 21st century eyes, and interestingly from a worldview very much built upon Christianity. It's important to remember that in Jesus' time some of the stuff he said was extremely radical and very badly received by some, especially those in positions of power. To be told to love their neighbour, to forgive, to stand up for the rights of the oppressed, to care for the poor, to turn the other cheek, to look carefully at themselves before judging others, to give away their riches and give everything to the poor - all of those things were not what people wanted to or in fact expected to hear. Greco Roman culture was one of a great big power structure and huge oppression - whatever you want to say about natural altruism and humanity's natural care for the other, it was very much not being played out in the temple courts or the political arenas in these times. In fact, Christians were seen as odd and mad for rescuing baby girls from rubbish dumps and staying in plague infested Rome to care for the sick when everyone else ran away.

I know you don't want to hear it but our culture was based on the principles of Christianity. How much of how we see things is built on so called natural altruism, and how much on the teachings of Jesus that took root in a tiny community and changed a hostile world?

Now I am not saying that there is not a natural goodness in humans. I think there absolutely is. But cultures do shape us and some do suppress this and we respond to what's going on around us - the polarisation around covid is a good example. But I don't think you can say Jesus said nothing special when what he said birthed a different kind of culture. Of course that culture got messed up over the years and great atrocities were done in the name of it, but none of them could be said to be based on it. They were just humans doing human and trying to get power. The thing about the Jesus culture is the bringing down of power and the equalising of every person. Paul loved to challenge the body politic and make a new paradigm where every member mattered as much as the other - it was an outrage in his culture.

You're saying that with very 21st century eyes, and interestingly from a worldview very much built upon Christianity.

No I am not.

I have a deep interest in neolithic and paleolithic culture.

Christans spin a very false narrative that the world was a brutal place before jesus- ir's simply not true. From ancient Crete to Europe, South America to Bali, many many comminuties lived in peace and harmony- and most without allowing male domination.

Cristianity has done nothing to improve that. You think the world is less violent and more peaceful because of christianity?

Some of the most indiginous and ancient groups in this planet who have never heard of christianity could teach us more about altruism than the bible ever did.

Again highlights the arrogance of christians. Thinking they brought altruism to the world.
A pile of shite.
All they did was seal the idea that women are the bottom of the pile and elevate male supremacy.

@speakout

You're saying that with very 21st century eyes, and interestingly from a worldview very much built upon Christianity.

No I am not.

I have a deep interest in neolithic and paleolithic culture.

Christans spin a very false narrative that the world was a brutal place before jesus- ir's simply not true. From ancient Crete to Europe, South America to Bali, many many comminuties lived in peace and harmony- and most without allowing male domination.

Cristianity has done nothing to improve that. You think the world is less violent and more peaceful because of christianity?

Some of the most indiginous and ancient groups in this planet who have never heard of christianity could teach us more about altruism than the bible ever did.

Again highlights the arrogance of christians. Thinking they brought altruism to the world.
A pile of shite.
All they did was seal the idea that women are the bottom of the pile and elevate male supremacy.

Hmm. Yes,undoubtedly lots of ancient cultures have a lot which is peaceful and good about them. However, that doesn't negate Christianity. From a Christian perspective, people were created in the image of God who is good. Although there is corruption, that doesn't negate what is good about people and in the world, either.

But I do think you have to be careful not to go to far down a 'noble savage' route with this. That would be equally arrogant to the arrogance you accuse Christians of and also quite patronising to those peoples in the ancient cultures you are describing. Surely they have as much agency as people in Western societies, to do good or bad?

I'm not trying to spin false narratives to make Christianity look better, I'm simply describing a political and cultural situation into which Jesus spoke a new kind of culture that was unexpected. That's not saying that all cultures pre Christianity were harsh and evil, and certainly not saying people were - I did say that I think people have a natural goodness and altruism but also that they are shaped by societies and twas ever thus.

As for the place of women - again, Jesus spoke radically into a cultrue where women were second best. He honoured them, counted them among his followers, taught them (unheard of), and appeared first to them at his resurrection, which was recorded in the gospels, a risky move in ancient writings (cf Josephus' opinion of the testimony of women.) I do agree that the Church has played a terrible part over the ages in suppressing and oppressing women and I'm very angry about that and I'm especially angry about those branches of the church who still hold these views today because I don't see how they can based on Jesus' teachings and culture.

I do think that Christianity has shaped the west in so many ways. That's not arrogance, it's just fact. Hospitals, science, education, music, art, literature, some of the great movements for change like abolition and civil rights - all of those things very much shaped by that culture which initially broke into a world hostile to it and changed it. Of course we messed up along the way, big time, but I think one of the reasons some of the good things like those above did take shape was because of our natural altruism and goodness as humans, responding to a culture that did work out their faith in practical ways as the first Christians did.

The historian Tom Holland has a lot to say on this (he is not a Christian) - this book is well worth a read and fascinating to boot.

Dominion: The Making of the Western Mind www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B010RGSEC2/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_NNT1MYFNR70WERDAB644?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The education of women was far from unheard of in ancient times before jesus.
Many cultures were egalitarian, matrilinial - thousands of years before the avdent of christianity.
It is laughable to suggest that christianity improved the lot of women.

I'm not in disagreement with you about many cultures pre Christianity and do agree some would have much to teach us today (especially to certain so called Christian subcultures in certain places). I'm talking about a certain society Jesus spoke into, his words revolutionary within that society, and the resulting change in culture as Christianity spread. I agree with you that people can have a natural goodness and that some cultures worked this out, but there's no denying that we've always been shaped by societies and our better nature perhaps suppressed - see the communist regimes in Russia and China in recent history (and more than recent sadly in some cases). The Roman regime was one of a stark power structure and women were generally at the bottom of the heap, hence baby girls often being exposed on rubbish heaps. I don't think it's laughable at all to suggest that early Christianity spoke into the lot of women, when it's well documented that women were emancipated in a new way, said babies rescued, widows honoured and cared for, women free to learn in a new way, women as leaders and speakers in churches. I'm not overstating the case that this was radical within that particular society and that these kinds of marks of Christianity then had a lasting effect.

I never deny that we went very wrong at times; I'm not ignorant. Some who called themselves Christians had a massively damaging effect on women's rights and civil rights in general. But the tenets of Christianity were at the centre of the most sweeping reforms and programmes of emancipation in western history. I'm not making something up because I think Christians are somehow better, I'm simply looking at history and stating facts about how culture has been shaped.

I do think that many branches of Christianity today are doing much to return to its roots and radical transformation of communities, in programs of debt relief, homeless shelters, foodbanks, the relief of oppression and hatred and the equality of all. I see it played out every day. I see it flawed and broken, too, because we're human. But there's a beauty and grace about it when we're better. And I see it played out across all religions and none because as you say, there is a natural altruism at the heart of people (I believe because we are formed in God's image) but I'd argue it's very much due to the shaping of culture. I'd really recommend that Tom Holland book, he says it so much better than I can.

I do think that many branches of Christianity today are doing much to return to its roots and radical transformation of communities, in programs of debt relief, homeless shelters, foodbanks, the relief of oppression and hatred and the equality of all.

That is because people are good- there are just as many examples of non christian groups and individuals helping others.

Are you suggesting that these christians wouldn't help others if they have no faith?

I hold humanity without faith in greater esteem than you do it seems.

You just ignored the rest of my last post though when I said I see it played out across all faiths and none. I've clearly said that I agree about a natural altruism in humanity. I've just argued the place of society in how that is expressed or suppressed. And in that particular post I was reflecting on how Christianity had got messed up over the ages and how there are many now who have returned to its roots, or tried to. In no way ever have I said that it's only Christians who do such things. You're reading your bias into my posts.

It's ok to state facts - the shaping of our culture by Christianity - and also reflect upon the natural goodness of people, not forgetting the messes we make too and the evil we do.