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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Struggling with Hell

371 replies

ksw0203 · 04/11/2021 15:17

Hi everyone,

I'm a christian but I'm really struggling with the idea of eternal punishment for unbelievers, it just seems very cruel and unlike the God I think I know. Has anyone else struggled with this or has any parts of scripture that could suggest something other than this? I know that Judaism and some sects of early Christianity viewed hell as a temporary punishment that sort of 'refined' people but don't know how reliable this is?

Thanks!

OP posts:
MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 00:04

mordinvasnormandy - Yes, people who dare to stand up and speak the truth can indeed be seen as dangerous. Many such ‘dangerous’ folk are being persecuted, imprisoned and killed in other countries today (that is bible believing Christians). Through the Christian charity I worked for I learned of whole villages in India being burnt down and people murdered for their faith. Such persecution is well known in China, Iraq, Iran, North Korea and many more. None of these stories ever make our news.

I am only citing bible verses and their message as comes across in plain reading ( no guru’s or teachers needed to explain thing’s, just the plain old ‘what the man in the street’ would conclude from their reading)

I am very interested to hear from any Christians on here supporting biblical evidence for no hell or temporary hell. Please share with me your verses. Also no one has yet to answer why Jesus gave his life on the cross if there was nothing to save us from?

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 00:28

OP here’s a selection of bible references re: hell if you’d like to study further or chat to your pastor about it. I will add if you have Jesus in your heart, you have absolutely nothing to fear from death. Once you’ve reconciled this question in your heart go spend time with God and he will show you why things are this way, it is to do with his nature as Holy. He cannot let sin go unpunished, which is why He sent his son to bear the punishment of the whole world so we don’t have to. It is all because of his great love for us.

Matthew 23:33

Matthew24:51

Matthew 7:13

Proverbs. 11:22, 15.11

Psalm 9:17

Luke 13:3,,,6:23

2 Thess 1:9

Luke 3:9,,,3:17

Rev 20:10

Ezekiel 26:20

Job33:28

Isiah 38:18

Rev14:11

Rev9:1-2

Psalm116:3

1Thess1:10

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These shall be

punished with

everlasting

destruction from

the presence of

the Lord . . .

speakout · 12/11/2021 06:00

Jesus died once, for all.

How does human sacrifice atone for wrongdoing exactly?

I know that was a fashionable thought in the midde East 2000 years ago, people would ascarifice all sorts of things, goats, chickens, even people in the belief that wrongs would be righted.

Thankfully those ideas are no longer popular- but seems pretty crucial for christian belief.

How does humen sacrifice work exactly?

glimpsing · 12/11/2021 06:38

@speakout

Jesus died once, for all.

How does human sacrifice atone for wrongdoing exactly?

I know that was a fashionable thought in the midde East 2000 years ago, people would ascarifice all sorts of things, goats, chickens, even people in the belief that wrongs would be righted.

Thankfully those ideas are no longer popular- but seems pretty crucial for christian belief.

How does humen sacrifice work exactly?

Actual blood rites and ritual still exist within certain kinds of Paganism and practice of Magick today. There was a thread, recently, around Halloween where posters on here confirmed this.
speakout · 12/11/2021 06:41

Actual blood rites and ritual still exist within certain kinds of Paganism and practice of Magick today.

Are you an expert on paganism ?

So you are Ok with that too then?
Your own blood rites and human sacrifice sits well with you?

You are happy to have someone die so you can get off the hook?

speakout · 12/11/2021 06:47

I still don't understand the mechanism of how a third party can atone for something I have done.
I know that idea was commonplace in the middle east 2000 years ago- but how does it work?

If I rob a bank and someone offers to cut off their hand to absolve my actions does that make it OK?
It sounds morally bankrupt.

glimpsing · 12/11/2021 06:51

@speakout, me? I don't profess to be an expert on anything. There is a lot to learn. The difference between Christianity and many Pagan blood rites, though, is in Christianity, God (the one we worship), in the form of Christ willingly sacrificed Himself, He provided the sacrifice on our behalf.

And the 'blood rites' I partake of, in the form of Communion, are done in remembrance of Christ's sacrifice.

glimpsing · 12/11/2021 06:53

@speakout

I still don't understand the mechanism of how a third party can atone for something I have done. I know that idea was commonplace in the middle east 2000 years ago- but how does it work?

If I rob a bank and someone offers to cut off their hand to absolve my actions does that make it OK?
It sounds morally bankrupt.

Sacrifice is a common theme within many belief systems / religions, though, including Paganism and practices in magick.
mordinvasnormandy · 12/11/2021 06:54

@MissingSummertime

Smug and with a persecution complex to boot.

OP, please don't listen to that posters scare mongering, their only saying what the they want to be true. Some people really get off on the idea that not only are they right and everyone else wrong, but all those wrong people will be brutally punished. It's sick.

lovelyupnorth · 12/11/2021 06:55

@ksw0203

Hi everyone,

I'm a christian but I'm really struggling with the idea of eternal punishment for unbelievers, it just seems very cruel and unlike the God I think I know. Has anyone else struggled with this or has any parts of scripture that could suggest something other than this? I know that Judaism and some sects of early Christianity viewed hell as a temporary punishment that sort of 'refined' people but don't know how reliable this is?

Thanks!

It’s easy it doesn’t exist. Purely a construct of leaders in the church to keep the plebs in line.

How anyone believes this bollocks is unbelievable.

mordinvasnormandy · 12/11/2021 06:57

Actual blood rites and ritual still exist within certain kinds of Paganism and practice of Magick today. There was a thread, recently, around Halloween where posters on here confirmed this

Your evidence is a thread on mumsnet?

Rugsofhonour · 12/11/2021 06:59

This reply has been deleted

Withdrawn at the user's request

glimpsing · 12/11/2021 06:59

@mordinvasnormandy, no, that was just an example. There are other sources and examples in fairly recent history. Doesn't take much digging,

mordinvasnormandy · 12/11/2021 08:05

[quote glimpsing]**@mordinvasnormandy, no, that was just an example. There are other sources and examples in fairly recent history. Doesn't take much digging,[/quote]
You're the one making the claim, you do the digging.

Even so, if I was to use examples of violence committed by Christians or Muslims, say, to generalise against them I'd be called out for it.

glimpsing · 12/11/2021 08:13

Even so, if I was to use examples of violence committed by Christians or Muslims, say, to generalise against them I'd be called out for it.

My response was in response to @speakout, and referenced her post, made at 06.00. I was just pointing out sacrifice has been and still is a feature within human societies.

glimpsing · 12/11/2021 08:16

You're the one making the claim, you do the digging

I have but am not about to take the thread into a different direction for the sake of making references. Do your own, if you are interested and then you have no risk regarding being swayed by any biases I might have. Smile

glimpsing · 12/11/2021 08:27

On the topic of the thread this is interesting:

"hell (n.)
also Hell, Old English hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of torment for the wicked after death," from Proto-Germanic haljō "the underworld" (source also of Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja "hell"). Literally "concealed place" (compare Old Norse hellir "cave, cavern"), from PIE root kel- (1) "to cover, conceal, save."

The English word may be in part from Old Norse mythological Hel (from Proto-Germanic *halija "one who covers up or hides something"), in Norse mythology the name of Loki's daughter who rules over the evil dead in Niflheim, the lowest of all worlds (nifl "mist"). A pagan concept and word fitted to a Christian idiom. In Middle English, also of the Limbus Patrum, place where the Patriarchs, Prophets, etc. awaited the Atonement. Used in the KJV for Old Testament Hebrew Sheol and New Testament Greek Hades, Gehenna. Used figuratively for "state of misery, any bad experience" at least since late 14c. As an expression of disgust, etc., first recorded 1670s."

(https://www.etymonline.com/word/hell#etymonlinevv_9125)

Madhairday · 12/11/2021 09:13

Hi @MissingSummertime - in a rush now but I appreciate your passion for Christ. I just wanted to share how I and many others have discovered what we believe to be a much more accurate way of reading scripture when it comes to these matters. You talk about Christian teachers - people like John Stott and NT Wright also back the idea of conditionalism which is that humans are not imbued with immortality, but God offers eternal life to those who accept. So we are saved from death (and so much more in this life) - you talk about simple readings, how about the most well known gospel verse, John 3 v 16 - Jesus sent so none should perish. Plain reading - so none should cease to exist, or it would say so none should suffer in fire for eternity. Even your passage about destruction is plain reading - destruction means just that - final, with everlasting consequences. All the verses you shared I believe to make a whole lot more sense from a conditionalism POV. Can't go into all of them now but honestly, I say this from a gentle standpoint as one who came out of the view you hold with great relief but also much more understanding of what scripture is saying and how centuries of tradition have twisted it, please have a read of some of these sites. This one gives some of the passages with that kind of reading. Many mainstream Christian teachers hold to this view with great integrity.

www.thatancientfaith.uk/home/perma/1590402420/article/an-examination-of-conditional-immortality-part-1.html

Hey @speakout - long time no see! How are you? I'll try and get back on to engage with your question a little more later if I can. Hope you're well.

speakout · 12/11/2021 09:29

My response was in response to @speakout, and referenced her post, made at 06.00. I was just pointing out sacrifice has been and still is a feature within human societies.

Does that make it right?
And the fact you are also willing to buy into human sacrifice as a valid mechanism for morality is quite shocking.

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 10:37

mordinvasnormandy - Jesus and his followers have been mocked and despised for centuries. I expect nothing less on a forum like this which attracts mockery and scorn for anyone who stands up to share the biblical accounts of what Jesus taught and the Gospel accounts.

I suppose firefighters who carry people from burning buildings ‘get off’ on it too?
And lifeboat rescue workers who pull people out of the sea?
How about paramedics who give life saving first aid? Doctors, nurses, surgeons, ambulance crew who work tirelessly to save the dying?
How about all the worldwide Emergency Relief Aid charities? Are we all just ‘getting off’ on trying to save people from suffering and death?

There is so so much importance in the world on saving people from physical death. All these life saving services, professions and individual heroes who’s passion is to save people from dying. Physical death is all around us everyday. Probably the greatest humans efforts globally are geared around trying to save lives and extend them due to compassionate concern.

Jesus taught there is a second (spiritual) death. This is much worse. It is what so many of us Christians are trying to warn our loved ones about and even total strangers, as we don’t want anyone to end up there. Jesus’s warnings about hell are so dire and scary because it is a terrifying diabolical place! The physical body dies and decomposes but the soul is eternal, it is going one of two places after death.

There are many bible verses recording Jesus teachings on heaven and hell.

Judge me all you like, only judge Jesus’s own words for yourself and chose whether to believe them or reject them.

For those who are interested in what Jesus taught, hell cannot be easily dismissed. In fact, no other biblical figure speaks about hell more often than Jesus Christ.
As the one who was God in human flesh, no one knows more about hell than Jesus. We can look at the different terms and images Jesus uses to describe hell, and explore what he actually says about it.

The two most common words for hell are hades and gehēnna. Hades was the Greek word for the realm of the dead, but Jesus uses it more specifically to refer to a place of torment (Luke 16:23), a place that is the opposite of heaven (Matt 11:23). Originally gehēnna referred to Hinnom Valley south of Jerusalem, where centuries earlier child sacrifice was practiced (2 Kings 23:10; Jeremiah 7:32). By the time of Jesus, gehēnna was a picture of hell, such that Jesus warns "fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [gehēnna]" (Matthew 10:28).

Fire Imagery
Jesus often combines this word with fire, a very common image of hell. As such it communicates the horror of the place, as in Matthew 5:22 when he warns "whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell [gehēnna] of fire."

Darkness Imagery
Another common picture of hell is darkness. Jesus warns that those who refuse to enter the kingdom of God by repentance and faith "will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt 8:12).

Jesus makes it very very clear we have one life here on earth in physical bodies to make our choices, about how we live and what we believe. It is up to us once we have heard about Jesus to chose for ourselves - is He Lord and Saviour? Or a madman, liar or demon? There is no scope in his teaching to pass him off as ‘ just a great teacher’, the late great CS Lewis said it best:

“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

speakout · 12/11/2021 10:42

*I suppose firefighters who carry people from burning buildings ‘get off’ on it too?
And lifeboat rescue workers who pull people out of the sea?
How about paramedics who give life saving first aid? Doctors, nurses, surgeons, ambulance crew who work tirelessly to save the dying?
How about all the worldwide Emergency Relief Aid charities? Are we all just ‘getting off’ on trying to save people from suffering and death?
*

But these wonderful acts are real, demonstrable, evidence based.

Not a shred of evidence that god exists, that there is heaven or hell, or that jesus is a saviour.

Zero evidence.

glimpsing · 12/11/2021 10:58

And the fact you are also willing to buy into human sacrifice as a valid mechanism for morality is quite shocking.

But I believe Christ is God. So God in the form of Christ willingly sacrificed Himself.

mordinvasnormandy · 12/11/2021 10:59

mordinvasnormandy - Jesus and his followers have been mocked and despised for centuries. I expect nothing less on a forum like this which attracts mockery and scorn for anyone who stands up to share the biblical accounts of what Jesus taught and the Gospel accounts.

I'm not mocking, but I'd rather be mocked than threatened with eternal suffering.

I suppose firefighters who carry people from burning buildings ‘get off’ on it too?
And lifeboat rescue workers who pull people out of the sea?

How about paramedics who give life saving first aid? Doctors, nurses, surgeons, ambulance crew who work tirelessly to save the dying?

If they talked with smug glee about how people who agree with them will rightly die in a fire then yeah maybe.

But please don't compare yourself to people who actually save lives. They do amazing things. You preach at people on the Internet.

MissingSummertime · 12/11/2021 11:06

@speakout

*I suppose firefighters who carry people from burning buildings ‘get off’ on it too? And lifeboat rescue workers who pull people out of the sea? How about paramedics who give life saving first aid? Doctors, nurses, surgeons, ambulance crew who work tirelessly to save the dying? How about all the worldwide Emergency Relief Aid charities? Are we all just ‘getting off’ on trying to save people from suffering and death? *

But these wonderful acts are real, demonstrable, evidence based.

Not a shred of evidence that god exists, that there is heaven or hell, or that jesus is a saviour.

Zero evidence.

So you have heard and made your choice.

Many millions have made the same choice and now have no way back. This is the wide highway that leads to destruction Jesus was talking about.

If your friend was about to stumble off the edge of a cliff, would you not try to pull them back?

If hell was a physical place we could visit, I would stand there day and night to pulling people back from the brink.

Please explain to me what is the Lake of Fire for all who purport to this false doctrine of conditionalism? For anyone’s name not found in the Book of Life, this is where they’re headed.

Sudokuzebra · 12/11/2021 11:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.