Struggling with Hell

[ksw0203]

Hi everyone,

I'm a christian but I'm really struggling with the idea of eternal punishment for unbelievers, it just seems very cruel and unlike the God I think I know. Has anyone else struggled with this or has any parts of scripture that could suggest something other than this? I know that Judaism and some sects of early Christianity viewed hell as a temporary punishment that sort of 'refined' people but don't know how reliable this is?

Thanks!

@speakout

I'm not going to agree with belief or behaviour which I think is plainly wrong and which goes against my conscience as a Christian.

Even if the bible supports those beliefs?
The bible speaks plainly.

It supports slavery, misogyny, homophobia.

Do christians who also hold those views not true christians?

I don't believe it does.

There is lots written on it which you can read if you are genuinely interested. Regarding interpretations, I rely on my Faith which I do in good conscience, which incidentally is Biblical. Love is the predominant measure of any interpretation for me.

Incidentally, you didn't answer my question,

Would you agree with every single act which is claimed to be done for the purpose of practicing witchcraft?

@glimpsing

So the people who do thinks you disagree with aren't really religious. How convenient

🤷‍♀️ I'm not going to agree with belief or behaviour which I think is plainly wrong and which goes against my conscience as a Christian. I don't know why anyone would expect it of me.

There's a difference between not agreeing with them and asserting that their not really religious or Christian. I'm sure there are people out there who might say that about you.

There's a difference between not agreeing with them and asserting that their not really religious or Christian. I'm sure there are people out there who might say that about you.

speakout described a church which I don't identify with or support in the actions she said it was responsible for. If I did identify or say anything to support the church she described I'm sure you would be horrified too. What she described and accused me of worshipping is effectively a straw man created, I believe, for the sake of argument in order to spread division.

Yes, individuals can make mistakes and I believe if they admit them, ask for God's forgiveness and repent they can be reformed. However, although I don't judge individuals (people are complex) this in no way precludes me from recognising actions which are bad and harmful and seeking to do all I can to stop those bad harmful actions.

And yes, I'm sure there are people around who will judge me, not least on this thread!

Love is the predominant measure of any interpretation for me.

I'm not going to agree with belief or behaviour which I think is plainly wrong and which goes against my conscience as a Christian. I don't know why anyone would expect it of me

What do you make of the actions of the jealous, wrathful, genocidal OT God. The one Jesus came to reconcile the world to?

@CathyorClaire

Love is the predominant measure of any interpretation for me.

I'm not going to agree with belief or behaviour which I think is plainly wrong and which goes against my conscience as a Christian. I don't know why anyone would expect it of me

What do you make of the actions of the jealous, wrathful, genocidal OT God. The one Jesus came to reconcile the world to?

I see Him through Jesus.

I see Him through Jesus

Fancy footwork.

speakout described a church which I don't identify with or support in the actions she said it was responsible for.

That doesn't make them "false religion", just different to you.

That doesn't make them "false religion", just different to you.

Would you describe the religion speakout described as true?

Fancy footwork

Well, He is The Lord Of The Dance (as sung about in the popular hymn).

@glimpsing

That doesn't make them "false religion", just different to you.

Would you describe the religion speakout described as true?

What do you mean true? I don't believe it anymore that I believe your particular brand of Christianity, but its still a real religion.

I don't believe it anymore that I believe your particular brand of Christianity,

You can say that without knowing very much about what I believe? I said upthread the God I worship is love. You don't believe in love?

Agree with all you say, @glimpsing. It's all very well to refer to the no true Scotsman fallacy, but why can't we look at the facts and infer the truth that the people committing these atrocities and forcing oppression were not Christians, when a Christian by definition is a Christ follower? The early church gave a good example of what it meant to be a community of faith built on Jesus' teaching and example, and most of the examples referred to here really do not. I don't see an issue with calling out corruption where I see it and pointing to what actual Jesus following looks like.

I don't see an issue with calling out corruption where I see it and pointing to what actual Jesus following looks like.

Yes, the Bible calls out corruption. From Jesus rebuking the scribes and Pharisees to Revelation pointing out corruption in the churches. And only look at the news regarding what can happen when no one speaks up about corruption or is not listened to when they do.

Although, all individuals, are complex and can make mistakes, it goes without saying this includes Christians, they belong to the body of Christ (church) and that church should point those mistakes out and warn them about the harm they cause and do what they can to prevent that harm.

I can remember it being said that Revelations was written by St John when he was high as a kite on LSD, or maybe that was a sort of 60s/70s liberal theoligical view.
However, surely if heaven exists then hell has to, as without one how can the other be perceived. Bit like night/day, love/hate etc

You don’t have to go to church to be Christian, my faith stands alone outside of the church system as it is a living breathing relationship with Jesus, a daily walk with him. I have been to church at different points over the years and have nothing against it per se, it’s just my relationship with God doesn’t depend on it. It is as rich and complex as any of my marital or family relationships. I got annoyed with God the other day, and had some cross words with him, today has been a beautiful day with him. People just don’t understand Him ( or want to) but there are wonderful facets to His character. For instance His sense of humour, which caught me off guard as I was not expecting it but I love that about Him!. I heard Him cry once on one of the nights we’ve been up just talking into the wee hours and it shook me to the core to hear that. Jesus is the most beautiful person I know, He also happens to be God. I have been blessed to have been in His physical (resurrected bodily physical) presence) twice in my life. He has saved my life on more than one occasion. He has given me glimpses of heaven that have and will continue to sustain me my whole life through because I know the joy that is coming. I have never experienced that kind of pure joy (the closest approximation is holding my baby).

If you don’t believe, please give Jesus a chance. A chance to show himself to you. He really is the truth and the hope of the world. Don’t judge Jesus based on people doing horrendous things in the name of religion, when it has nothing at all to do with Christ or those who truly follow Him and His example.

Lol the above makes it sound like I have multiple marriages! 😂 just to clarify, it is just the one!

@glimpsing

I don't believe it anymore that I believe your particular brand of Christianity,

You can say that without knowing very much about what I believe? I said upthread the God I worship is love. You don't believe in love?

FFS of course I do, I don't believe in God.

It's all very well to refer to the no true Scotsman fallacy, but why can't we look at the facts and infer the truth that the people committing these atrocities and forcing oppression were not Christians, when a Christian by definition is a Christ follower?

I'm sure plenty of those people would claim you're not a true Christian either. You don't get to decide for other people.

Many christians like to "call out corruption".
Several of my very close family are devout christians,, they support gay conversion therapy, are anti abortion, have strict ideas about women not being able to preach in church.
Their views are supported by the bible.

FFS of course I do, I don't believe in God

As I said, the God I believe in is love.

But I do understand what you're saying. It's like the Nick Cave song. He very obviously loves too. So from my perspective he has God in him.

"I don't believe in an interventionist God
But I know, darling, that you do
But if I did I would kneel down and ask Him
Not to intervene when it came to you
Not to touch a hair on your head
To leave you as you are
And if He felt He had to direct you
Then direct you into my arms
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms
And I don't believe in the existence of angels
But looking at you I wonder if that's true
But if I did I would summon them together
And ask them to watch over you
To each burn a candle for you
To make bright and clear your path
And to walk, like Christ, in grace and love
And guide you into my arms
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms
And I believe in Love
And I know that you do too
And I believe in some kind of path
That we can walk down, me and you
So keep your candlew burning
And make her journey bright and pure
That she will keep returning
Always and evermore
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms"

However, although the song is beautiful, it is also desperately sad. The object of his love is not perfect, is only human so they will learn and change over time. They should not and cannot be preserved forever as they are.

So love is wrathful, venegful jealous? Quick to smite?
Believes that children should pay for the wrongdoings of their ancestors? Thinks it's Ok to beat slaves as long as they donn't die immediately?

Doesn't sound very loving to me.
Your god sounds like a gaslighting, evil, controlling asshole with anger managemant issues.

As I said, the God I believe in is love.

So everyone who believes in love (so um... everyone) is part of your religion. Except for the Christians who do things you don't like, somehow they're not, even though no doubt they'd say they believed in love just as much as you do.

Sounds like a stretch.

BTW that song is downright creepy.

@depremesnil

As I said, the God I believe in is love.

So everyone who believes in love (so um... everyone) is part of your religion. Except for the Christians who do things you don't like, somehow they're not, even though no doubt they'd say they believed in love just as much as you do.

Sounds like a stretch.

It does stretch me. And it was churches under scrutiny not individuals. Individuals make mistakes and if they admit them, ask God for forgiveness and repent can be reformed. However the church (body of Christ - i.e. other Christians around them) should point out what is wrong and harmful, basically help, not hinder a bad situation. But, yes, they still can be Christians but as a Christian too I have to point out what I see as wrong and harmful.

Just as if you love your child you don't let them run into the road, even if they think they want to.