surprised to learn people still celebrate Xmas when they understand its origins

[PuppyDogEyes]

I have recently read about the origins of Christmas, and although a muslim, would always participate on a low level (i.e return cards, return merry christmas wishes etc)
But now i know the origins, cannot continue to do this.
However i was having a conversation with a group of friends and old colleagues (a mixture of religions), who all seem to know the origins and still celebrate christmas.
isn't that wrong?

more or less, puppy, more or less

yes, sort of. though the saints thing is a bit more complicated, and Protestantism doesn't preclude recognition of saints.

i'm rediscovering christianity after a long break, although of course i always celebrated christmas, if not sure what exactly i was celebrating.

most liberal minded christians don't expect the literal truth to be conveyed in our festivals, esp christmas, it's far more about what's symbolically true as a guide to how we should live and treat one another imho.

Thank you to everyone who particiapted in the discussion!!

i really hope no one took any offense.

i know that i for one have learnt a thing or two!!

i had no idea that the thread would take off like this!

Thanks again, until the next time eh??!!

it is an interesting discussion.
thanks for starting it

Why thank you, EvilDesi. Entertaining to have the Evil one applauding my grasp of Christianity - must be going wrong somewhere. I'm a bit rusty, tbh, have only just started going to Church again recently.

Hope some of that helped, somewhere along the line, Puppy!

Does anyone else think these threads on Christmas are getting earlier and earlier every year?

After all, we haven't even got the Halloween debate out the way yet!

You lot have been busy!

But yes, I celebrate Christmas, despite the origins of the festival, and I celebrate Easter even more, despite the origins of THAT festival. I prefer Easter because there is slightly less consumerism.

As for the Trinity. Try reading St Augustine on the subject. He made the first decent crack at trying to explain it, and a lot of what he said is how I feel about the Trinity. Just don't ask me to explain it, as someone has already said "its a mystery"!!

Ach, I missed the rest of this on Friday night.

Dadtob - if you come back to this thread, I wanted to say that a huge problem (I think) with islam is that muslims are actively discouraged from thinking for themselves. I really dislike the way that it is seen as 'wrong' to challenge anything in the Quran and I think you have shown that in repeating some pronouncements on here - I find that a really offputting element of the religion.

Do you not feel as though you should be able to think for yourself?

HELLO bessie123... islam is the opposite.. islam encorgages you to ask question and look for the answers yourselfs. unlike certain religions you are told to believe.

can you tell me where did you got your sources? or is this your opinon?

The creator as given you freedom to think and freedom to do?

you are WELCOME to challenge anything in the quran, but the answers are all there? do you question the OXFORD DICTONARY?... if you do? when you find the answer does it not match the dictonary?

in this thread i asked about Jesus being son of god, my thinking states if humans have children (these children are little are little HUMANS).. MY THINKING states that if jesus is son of god, then jesus is also god, hence chrisitinity has 2 gods.... ch islam a beautiful system that encorages you to question.

you say ' I think you have shown that in repeating some pronouncements on here'.. can you tell me what i said instead of leaving a open hole?

Do you belive there is a creator?

Trinity... did the creator of the universe, create us to be confused?...

do you agree that the creator is one, absolute, enternal, unique, self-suficient, perfect, independent, the uncasued casue of all that exists, besought of all, he begets not, nor is he begotten, and there is none that could be comparable to him??

dadtob, if the Quran has the answer to everything, where does it say that adulterous women should be stoned? or that that they should be covered head to toe in a burka?

It does not.
you see, the bible, the quran are just man made texts that are used and abused as necessary. you CANNOT take them literally, as you are trying to do!

dadtob - I think the Christian approach is that although Jesus is the son of God, he is also God; he is part of the holy trinity that makes up one God. so it is still a mono-theistic religion. It is 3 parts of the whole. Of course I do not believe in creation because it is clearly a load of nonsense if you take it literally. But I am not a Christian, so my opinions on that are probably not v useful.

I talked about not being able to question from yours and puppydogeyes' comments, including your post that

'islam has all the answers if you look at islam with a open heart you can have all your answers'

And from many muslims I know being as dogmatic as you appear to be. for example, I have never, ever met a religioius muslim who would say 'you're right, that aspect of islam is not ok and I am not happy about that part of my religion'. I get the impression that any 'questioning' that is allowed to take place must always result in the same conclusion. Is that my misinterpretation?

Sorry - dadtob - to be clear, I don't believe in a creator either.

And again, sorry to keep posting afterthoughts, but what about the freedom to decide that the answers are not all there in the Quran? What happens if that is what you decide? Does it make you a bad muslim?

Lil/bessie i will post answers to your question ... i at work currenly

Bessie, I suspect if you conclude that the Quran doesn't have all the answers then it might be suggested that you are not a Muslim at all...

Lil ? are u asking me or telling it doesn?t say that?

Bessie ? the answers to questions always leads to the same result just like the oxford dictionary (do you prefer a world where there are no answers and chaos?). Yes you are right muslims who embrace islam and understand it system and the solutions it offers they find very very very hard to turn away from it. for example islam doesn?t not allow mortgages/interest because you could buy a house and pay for 28 years for it, during the last couple of years you have a problem keeping up your payments due to interests rates, is it fair that you lose your house? Now the Islamic system prevents this.. why would you what to turn your back on the solution?...

You have me intrigued?. are you a atheism? what are your beliefs? How are we created? What are your thoughts on life? So many questions

dadtob

definitely telling you. check it out for yourself. It is an 'inconvenient truth'!

dadtob - if you haven't paid for your house then yes, I suppose it is fair (if not v nice) that you lose it.

I admit, I have difficulty in seeing how you can find value in a religion that does not anticipate or allow for difference or disagreement. For example, women having to cover their hair or even their faces (although I am aware that this can be a cultural thing more than religious) encourages them to deny their individuality, so they are indistinct from any other woman. I can't believe that people fall for the argument that it encourages women to be who they really are because they don't need to worry about shallow things such as what they look like, because that is just nonsense. what they look like is part of who they are. And that argument looks particularly ridiculous when a woman is all covered up but her face is plastered with make-up.

I think ultimately, I just couldn't take someone's word for it about a system by which to live my life, particularly if that person had made this system up thousands of years ago and (I am not meaning to be rude here, just addressing some criticisms of islam) was of dubious moral character.

I have mixed views on spirituality. I guess to a large extent, I am an atheist, but I find paganism, especially witchcraft, very interesting and I think it has a lot to offer people, once you get away from the stereotype of pointy hats and broomsticks. As far as how we were created, evolution sounds pretty plausible to me.

What a bonkers thread, I'm almost sorry I did RL stuff today..

As a generally fairly puritan Christian, I did indeed go through a period of not celebrating Christmas.

However, as I am profoundly grateful for the fact of the incarnation, celebrating the birth of Christ strikes me as a very sensible thing to do.

Pagan origins can be uncovered for just about anything, to be honest. I'm quite happy to call Sunday by it's pagan name and still go to church on that day.

bessie123.. no offence taken at all :-)

no islam does not encourge hyprocites.. you cannot say you belive in a creator and yet do things that teach against it. what kind of religion or system would that be... infact what kind of person is that?

women covering? is this what worries about islam? :-) that is another topic and if you open up a new thread we can talk about it in there... plus me being a male u may consider my opinons invalid.. open a thread and ask the muslim sisters.

evolution.. is that darwinism?

lil... so you telling me you have read the quran from beginning to end?

dadtob - I am interested in your views about the necessity for women to cover up.

And why do you not separate the macro from the micor? For example, is it possible to believe in a creator but question and disagree with some teachings about the characteristics or other details of the creator? I don't see how that is hypocritical.

Darwinism to some extent, although I'm not sure about the 'survival of the fittest' idea; I think that is more complex than Darwin made out.

bessie if you open up a new thread regarding muslim women covering, i can share my views. i dont see what the big issue is with women dressing modestly? and dressing modestly is not for women on some levels men have to as well. The main principle reason for the hijab is modesty, which is not wishing to receive unnecessary attention from people, such as admiration and flattery, envy, or, most importantly, sexual attraction from those other than her husband.Great care is taken to keep sexual thoughts, feelings and interactions to within the boundaries of the marital relationship.

what are your thoughts on how are you created? the purpose of life?

But why is it the woman's responsibility to keep men's sexual feelings at bay? Why isn't it the men's responsibility to deal with their feelings appropriately?

Have to rush off now, but will come back to discuss this tomorrow - lots to say.