surprised to learn people still celebrate Xmas when they understand its origins

[PuppyDogEyes]

I have recently read about the origins of Christmas, and although a muslim, would always participate on a low level (i.e return cards, return merry christmas wishes etc)
But now i know the origins, cannot continue to do this.
However i was having a conversation with a group of friends and old colleagues (a mixture of religions), who all seem to know the origins and still celebrate christmas.
isn't that wrong?

IS it wrong to celebrate something that's not a correct rep of your faith?

It's not as if its hiden that the dates etc are wrong- Christmas was first celebrated over 1000 years (1038 she said, swotting on notes )after the date that is set for Christs death, so there was always going to be debate. And different brances of Christianity celebrate at different times too- eg Epiphany.

Whereas IIRC in Islam things like Ramadan are established date wise? And of course Muhammad's dates are more within recordable history than Christs (although even then theres academic debate you know...)

I just think its a different mindset.

Also there are branches of Christianity that would agree wth you totally- Puritans in history, and now the Jehovah's Witnesses. Both refused to celebrate the festival, the Puritans knew it as FoolTide.

I think there are two aspects to Christmas - the secular celebration of family and friendship, and the religious commemoration and celebration of the birth of Christ. I celebrate both aspects myself, and have no problems with others concentrating on just the one.

I have never seen Christmas trees and the like as representations of my faith at all, so it's not something I have any issues with.

profPlum- accorsing to some sources (can get quotes next week if you want- its in my notes so dont have refs to hand) St Nick was recorded in some historic texts as a warlord of the murder and rape type.

The kindly St Nick is supposedly really taken from Wodin.

Surely it's what it means to whoever chooses to celebrate it that is important?

Puppydogeyes, I understand that serious questions have been raised about the authenticity of the Quran and how it was memorised then written down, but I assume you follow it and that it is important to you?

Peachy - can you post more about wodin? I've never heard of him before

My recollection of St Nick (and Black Pete) was that of a wealthy merchant who went round at night throwing presents into the windows of the impoverished.

Ah the qustions about the validity of the Qur'an (and the evidence against the Hdith is absolute- prominent Muslim leaders used to employ hadith writers to create sections that reflexcted their interests. Although with the Qur'an the 'lost' timescales are perhaps not as extreme as the Bible? ) isn't accepted by Muslims, thats where the 'mindset' difference comes in that I referred to.

Islam is a religion with lots to say for it (as indeed is Christanity, i follow neither0 but the ways of thinking / definitions of what it means to beleive and accept are very different.

I thought he was a kindly man who left bags of gold on peoples doorsteps. I thought the Wodin thing was to make a st. more acceptable to Protestants. We have a santa shaped cake on Dec 6th.

I don't have huge notes on Wodina nd St Nick (can get mroe information if people want), as we were just given introductory boites (next essay si to select a Christian festical, but I didnt choose Christmas so haven't researched it much). Wodin / Woden is an ancient Norse God however, has information that shows how far he ahs become integrated into ur Culture- eg Wednesday.

PeachyFleshCrawlingWithBugs -

The things i cannot get to grips with and this is not from any muslim hadeeths or quaran:

1.No-one knows the birth of jesus.

2.jesus did not celebrate his birthdays there is no evidence in the bible, if i am mistaken please correct me by giving the source and ref.

3.Around the 19-25th dec was the pagan festivals 25th being the climax of the festivals.

4. 25th chosen by a pagan roman who converted to christinity (Constatine) (source webster dict/colliers enclyclopedia)

If christmas is supposed to celebrate jesus birth, yet the celebrations are taken from pagan festivals.. i feel there is a double standards either you belive in and live the way jesus commanded.

but surely incorporating traditions like christmas trees and mistletoe etc are against my friends religion and they know it but they still do it.

so is culture and today's soceity just easier to go along with then religion?

I really don't mean to cause offense, just asking questions.
i have come to realise that things i have done in the past conflict with my religious beliefs without realising, but now i know, i don't intend to continue doing them.

I'm intrigued by the St Nick thing- that arose from sdiscussion rather than direct notes- and will look into it forther. Cetratinly I cannot find any sites that would be considered quotable in a degree essay as they all seem to be religious in origin; and the legend of St Nick as it is widely shared has that Christian patriarchal legend to it. I shall chat to the Prof and ask for some refs- and pop them on ehre when I have them.

There isn't even any evidence that Jesus existed. It is perfectly within the boundaries of faith that he is apocryphal. I doubt that we shall ever, truly know.

I am leaving this thread now, however. I don't question your religious festivals, puppy. This is a very special time of year for Christians and secular folk alike. Perhaps it's best not to over-analyze these things.

I think this is a very interesting thread. Please keep it going over the weekend - I will come back and have a read on Monday.

"incorporating traditions like christmas trees and mistletoe etc are against my friends religion and they know it but they still do it."

It'd have to be a damned strict interpretation of Christianity for having a Christmas tree to be actively against it rather than merely irrelevant to it (and indeed in the case of Jehovah's Witnesses, Puritans etc this is/was indeed the case).

Well, on another thread someone did say that they weren't doing Father Christmas because they were Christian...

I suppose if you take the view that they are still symbolic of pagan religions as they are used today then you may have a point. But they aren't really are they, for the vast majority? So irrelevant as Mrs B says.

It seems Constantine chose that dayte because it conincided with the exsting Roman celebration of Saturnalia here- you will note that date is not the 25th. Christmas isnt celebrated on the 25th everyehere, for example in some regions Epiphany in january is more widely celebrated. And although we tend to celebrate Christmas as the biggest celebration, Easter is in fact the definitive Christian occasion.

Christmas trees came to this country as a result of Queen Victoria and her Husband, rhe germanic origin is perhaps different but here they merely stem from a decorative tradition. You're right about Mistletoe though!

Your'e also right that the Bible doesn't mention birthdays- that's the approach taken by the JW as well. The thing is, the Bible isn't the textual guide ot faith in the way the Qur'an is- many things are nto mentioned in the Bible and it is not seen by the majority of Christians as the work of God whereas the Qur'an is of course the message of god through Muhammad. therfore, the fact that birthdays are omitted isn't necessairly the big issue in the way it could otherwise be.

i think ultimately, christmas has become a group celebration and way of giving thanks for the life of jesus, and indeed many other things in life- eg fmaily. Chreistians generally know that the Bible has been edited and colated by various people at avrious times, and know that the calendar isn't the most reliable. taht's not the issue- the issue is remembering what Christ stood for, the story that led to His birth, and celebrating it as the start of something very special to thsoe who beleive. dates / precise methods of celebration aren't as historically essential in Christianity as in other faiths perhaps and the early Church didnt seem to see the inclusion and derivation of symbolisms as particualrly bad either.
Indded, the sotory of Christ is present in different faiths (as in his birth, it is accepteed Christ existed- even in Islam IIRC). But tradition is such that it dosn't seem to matter.

i thnk ultiamtely if people saw the Bible as saying ' on this day you must do X Y and Z to commemorate' then Christmas would be different- but it doesn't. very few celebrations are prescrivbed in the Bible, the vast majority evolved. that's OK- its just the way it is.

BTW I shoudl declare that I am not a paactising Christian! I ahev beleifs leanbing towards Christinaity and a great respect for whT I think jesus emant as a person, but my awareness of the influence of the early Church on what is now percieved as Christianity means I have no faith in the organised format of the religion, if that makes sense?

i lime threads like this; force me to read my ntoes and relaise where the gaps are LOL!

I am a Christian I find that at Christmas I am celebrating:

The end of another year, and the passing of the darkest day
The closeness and love of my family
My local community, charities and music
The fact that Jesus came to us as a baby in humble circumstances

I am not really bothered by how the tradition started or grew, I find that it is a celebration that is relevant to my life and my faith now.

Desi history suggest Jesus existed BUT not much about who he really was, iyswim? Agin can get refs if you want.

but are you saying puppy that in order to be a christian one must live as 'christ lived' ie not celebrate birthdays .. because that sounds a bit pants

Surely those who follow a religion follow the mores and morals that that religion dictates. The unpalatable bit to me has always been the customs and traditions that are patently put in by the priesthood and scholars who define and refine based on their beliefs and standards, and as the world has been male dominated for so many millenia then these are mainly written / dictated from a male perspective... so I see generation after generation of men locking themselves away from the real world and then dictating how members of that world should live ... and so we move further and further away from the central tenets of the faiths

ahhh it's all for a drunken late-night conversation really isn't it?