surprised to learn people still celebrate Xmas when they understand its origins

[PuppyDogEyes]

I have recently read about the origins of Christmas, and although a muslim, would always participate on a low level (i.e return cards, return merry christmas wishes etc)
But now i know the origins, cannot continue to do this.
However i was having a conversation with a group of friends and old colleagues (a mixture of religions), who all seem to know the origins and still celebrate christmas.
isn't that wrong?

mm i am a muslim and all muslims love jesus and muslim respect jesus and place him the ranks he deserves

(I disagree with you about St Nicholas though Peachy, I wrote a lovely musical bout him and he seemed rather jolly. miracles etc)

Dadtob - do you celebrate christmas then and if so how? If not what do you do instead?

Dadtob ignore my post as it has crossed over with yours and pretty much answers mine!!

I can't remember whether the nativity concept was in the mahabarata 9think it was) or a jain text, either way it rpedates Christianity. Zoroastrianism can claim a lot of what is now considered Christianity as well- esp. when you look at the whole Satan aspect. And there's a school af academic beleif that the wise Men celebrated at Epiphany were in fact Buddhists who came to take jesus and their education is what amde the differnce between Jewish jesus and christian Christ.

Doesn't really matter though. Ultimately Christianity is abouta Christ who taught that Love si the most important concept and God is a forgiving, welcoming reality. Quite a bit of the rest is from Paul anyway, after all.

Have read as much of this as I can without uttering the word 'PAH!'

I'm a secularist. I don't celebrate christmas/xmas/yule/winter solstice etc. We get together in December because it's the only time my parents have off work. We are thankful that we have a family to spend time with.

I think you should only be allowed to celebrate christmas if you are actively christian (ie regularly performing acts of worship: Not just an easter egg scoffing, christmas cracker pulling 'believe it in times of peril' fair weather follower. )

So I guess that believe would encompass acceptance of whatever level of editorialising happens when stories about religion are written.

I've got to look into that Harpsi- it was a quote from a lecture, shalla sk Prof about it- he knows far mroe than me LOL.

No presents WMMC?

Depending on which Pagan path you follow, the tree itself is/was worshipped or it is used symbolically to represent the Tree of Life (branches in the sky, roots in the earth sort of thing).

The lights are representative of the sun, moon and stars as well as the spirits of departed family.

The 'star' on the top is the Pentagram, symbolising the 5 elements.

Mistletoe was more important to the Druids than to many other Pagans, although it does have some interesting properties important in rituals.

Do I take it, then, Chocolate, that your kids don't get any presents at Christmas?

God, I know Muslims who have bowed to the inevitable forces of festive consumerism where their kids are involved

Actually, iirc the German tradition of the Christmas tree is based on the story of St Boniface who found a group of pagans worshipping an oak tree and angrily cut it down (it is not recorded what he did to the pagans, but some of those early saints were tough cookies)The story says that a fir tree sprang from the roots of the oak & St Boniface took it to be a symbol of the Christian faith.

Of course this story could equally be a means of validating the ancient tradition of brigning evergreens in to the house at the winter solstice to celebrate the triumph of life over death - which was recorded in Ancient Egyptian times.
But there is no reason it can't be a symbol of Christian faith because it is also a symbol of other faiths.

Forgot the holly, sorry. Green for eternal life, red for menstrual blood.

yes I Agree mmj of course Christianity like all (most?) religions encompasses the human craving for ritual.
that does not make ritual relgious.
and in particular it doesn't make Christmas rituals Christian of themselves, though of course there are some very specific exceptions I am sure, though it is hard to think of one right now

Nope, we don't do presents. We do have a nice meal though. But we buy each other presents throughout the year to express appreciation and so it's not a biggie.

PuppyDogEyes, I think Christianity is in some senses more flexible than Islam. Although there are some pretty inflexible branches of Christianity, to be fair. But Christians on the whole and the religion as a whole has tended to adapt local customs rather than rubbish them and insist that they are abolished and never mentioned again. It's a pragmatic approach that made Christianity more acceptable to potential new recruits.

The way I see it, the early leaders wanted to get the chief messages across. The core is that you believe in God and that Jesus was his son, and that he gave his only son in order to save us from sin. Everything else is much less significant than that. (And 'his' doesn't mean God is a man, btw.)

I get the impression from what you are saying that perhaps Islam is less accomodating/stricter?

in the only two religions I know in any detail, Christianity and Judaism, there is at least one school of thought each that gives validity to the customs of the faithful and the thoughts of later authorities, as well as to the pure origins of the faith and the lives of the founders/originators.

In Christianity, most reformers of any stamp have labelled their reforms as wanting to return to 'the original fount', and this has led denominations in many directions according to what they thought the most important part of the origin is.

Christmas to me celebrates the birth of a baby, which is something that truly does express one of the positive aspects of the faith, that every individual matters and that God loves all humans (this is obviously part of all faiths, don't get me wrong!)

How us fallible humans celebrate Christmas, with expressions of love and joy that mean something to us, even if they were pagan in origin, is part of its pleasure and its inclusiveness to me.

I don't quite see why you no longer feel you can take part in Christmas even as a mutual celebration of light in the midst of darkness, but would fully understand that you don't want to endorse something that you feel is misleading. I would agree that Christmas is not always a pretty sight.

It is heresy in Islam to say that God had a son.

Apparently.

edam, I think you are right in as much as judao - Christianity is a much older religion and has a long long history of accommodating to existing cultures and absorbing them.
becoming more tolerant and flexible along the way until you get the cofe
Islam has not had that history yet.

See, now this is the aspect of religion that I really dislike.

Why cant traditions and religious celebration cross over?

What harm does it do?

Why should there be rules and regulations enforced by others as to how you choose to exercise your beliefs/traditions if its not harming someone else?

I'm (I've discovered recently from an MN thread ) a secular humanist. Largely atheist if I'm honest. I dont believe in God. I dont disbelieve Jesus existed, I just think that stories of his life are incredibly exaggerated.

I celebrate Christmas.

Christmas, to me, is a time of year for family to get together, enjoy each others company, and celebrate the year gone by. I love the traditions that go with Christmas. Not because I am following religious beliefs, because its a really good excuse for family to become close again, be around each other, and treat each other.

This isnt wrong.

Evil D - i was one of those muslims (to some extent) see my opening post.
but now i found out why celebrating christmas is contradictory to my beliefs on many levels, i must not fall into the consumerism and cultural influences around celebrating christmas.
i'm not due to have my first child until next year, and so have a little time to work out how to explain this to my child.
(wish me luck!!)
although i have a friend who refused to pass on the Santa trads to her kids, because she didn't beleive in knowingly telling them lies.

(i thought that was a bit harsh at the time, and thought she could explain it as a myth or story but i now understand her way of thinking.)

To be fair Yvaine, very few 'religious' posters on here have said otherwise...

Well, I don't agree with you, Puppy. Not on any level, but I respect your opinions, nonetheless.

I think that a European and/or Christian child holds Christmas in magical esteem, and I could no more take it away from them then I could take away their very sustenance.

Life must have its magic, whether it be pagan, Christian, Islamic, or just downright shallow.

You're a long time dead, whatever god you pray to.

Although Desi Islamic God IS the same God...

But in reality I agree- life needs those special moments. Some have Eid, some have Christmas. hey ho!

if jesus is gods son does that mean christines have 2 gods. islam belives in one creator only