surprised to learn people still celebrate Xmas when they understand its origins

[PuppyDogEyes]

I have recently read about the origins of Christmas, and although a muslim, would always participate on a low level (i.e return cards, return merry christmas wishes etc)
But now i know the origins, cannot continue to do this.
However i was having a conversation with a group of friends and old colleagues (a mixture of religions), who all seem to know the origins and still celebrate christmas.
isn't that wrong?

By harpsicorpsecarrier on Fri 26-Oct-07 20:05:35
dadtob, I am not involving Jesus! why on earth would you think that or say that?

sorry i got mixed up with thee replies i do apologise to anyone if i caused offence.

Why do you think decorating your house with a fir tree is disrepectful to Jesus?

There is no pagan intent (well, there may be for Pagans of course - where is St George? - but not for most people.

By themildmanneredaxemurderer on Fri 26-Oct-07 20:10:02
"lalalalalalalalalalalalalalaaaaaaaaaa
i csan't hear you"

it doesn't, but it doesn't specifically say the date either. but it does specifically say in Luke 19:22 to remember Jesus death.

puppydogeyes, good for your for questioning these things, and for following your conscience

And I'd like to point out that each and every church across this country open their doors to anyone wishing to celebrate this momentuos occasion not to blow out the candles on a cake but to celebrate his teachings, the miracle that was the birth of Christ and indeed Christ himself.

Other traditions have been picked up the way as part of our culture and are used in addition not as part of.

sorry that's luke 22:19

sorry, let me explain myself a bit better.
I mean I think it is wrong to say that Christmas are Christian ones based on pagan ones.
I think they are effectively still pagan ones, in as much as by (say) lighting candles or putting up a Christmas tree or giving presents or kissing under mistletoe or getting extremely pissed and eating far too much we aren't in any real sense following Christian rituals. we are following our pagan instincts/ancestors by making light and bringing in green stuff in the middle of winter and celebrating kinship and feasting to make merry in the mid-winter.
I think that (in the UK and from what I have seen most of Western Europe) Christmas remains a pagan festival in the way in which we celebrate it.
that is not to say that the festival doesn't have a real meaning for Christians, who respond to the symbolism and of course have their own traditions of worship and remembrance.
but it is a pagan festival. IMO.

count to 10 - i can understand that people do or want to celebrate the birth of Christ, but my confusion lies with celebrating the day with traditions that are based in another spiritual belief.

(if that makes sense?!)

agree, it is pagan. you'll be interested to know that it was even banned in england and some american colonies in 17th century because of unscriptural origin. don't know why it came back in though.

dadtob, you're being very provocative.

It's intensely irritating to be repeatedly quoted, as you have been doing with MM.

By TerrorMater on Fri 26-Oct-07 20:12:51
''Why do you think decorating your house with a fir tree is disrepectful to Jesus?
There is no pagan intent (well, there may be for Pagans of course - where is St George? - but not for most people.'

because the tree was used as worship (for spirits, for enternal life ) and we are associating tree to the teachings of jesus.

regarding intent íf i murder a person and stole his money.... should i punished? if my intent was to get the money and buy food?

intent and actions go hand in hand.

I think that it is a misunderstanding to view "pagan" in this sense as a specific religion or even a set of spiritual beliefs.
I think it is deeper and less conscious than that, I think it speaks to a need in ourselves which hasn't much changed for a few millennia

I am going to quote pigleto, she put it well I think:

"I am a Christian I find that at Christmas I am celebrating:

The end of another year, and the passing of the darkest day
The closeness and love of my family
My local community, charities and music"

those are not spiritual inthe sense you mean I think. I don't think they are in conflict with any religion (unless very strictly interpreted). I think they are just basic, ancient, human needs, turned into rituals to meet those needs.

I don't believe that Paganism is, intrinsically, another spiritual belief. It is the first belief, now a part of the cultural blend, a happy hotchpotch of historical give and take amongst the people (initially) of Europe.

Any how, we just want to get pissed and give and receive presents in the darkest month of the year. Who in their right mind would have any beef with that?

It was used for worship. It isn't now. Which is my point really.

TheEvilDediderata ohhhh i was answering the questions that mm was asking there are so many posts i was trying to make it clear

And I bet you know that post is directed to you DTB, without me quoting your last post in full

datob

Just because bringing an evergreen tree inside was used by pagans to celebrate eternal life, that doesn't mean that I can't use it to celebrate the eternal life promissed by Jesus as part of my religion. Trees are part of Gods creation and shouldn't be monopolised by pagans imo.

The first mention of christmas according to my notes is in AD 1038

Its a bit much expecting people to remember dates accurately over that time, isn't it?

An adoptive birthday isn't unusual anyhow- My FIL has no idea of when his actual birthday is, his Mum left himwhen he was a toddler. So they chose a day and thats what we celebrate. We're celebrating HIM not a day.

Twig- Gospels of Thomas / Phillip etc (Gnostic Gospels) make for great reading - love that stuff!

Puppydog, I understand totally what you're saying. I was more responding to Dadtob comments. I was raised celebrating christmas as most people but my mum always explained what was behind the traditions. We went through the story of christ etc and how some of the traditions we have relate to that story but others that didn't were also explained i.e. christmas trees, stockings, father christmas etc. We always new that there were seperations and celebrated each appropriately. I will do the same with my children. I see no harm in that.

My Grandma doesn't have a birthday either. She celebrates it at Chinese New Year.

the whole nativity story is a mish mash of other traditions and stories, it is a great story that has stood the test of time
its connection with Jesus, though, is pretty tenuous.
and I don't see why the Christians should monopolise the midwinter festival either
I celebrate it as a person and not as a follower of any religion

... and Christmas as we know it was almost single-handedly invented by Dickens when he invoked the true spirit of Christmas in A Christmas Carol.

Much of the modern British iconography comes from that one novel. Another reason to salute the great man.

for Twig

there's the Gospel of AMry on there as well, indeed all the Gnostic Gospels (declared Heretics) are rather interesting

I like that evil-d!!