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Original poster

Need some Christian advice please - warning controversial!

151 replies

mumclaire · 30/09/2007 20:21

Never posted on this topic before but really need some advice with an issue dh and I are really struggling with. Know this is a sensitive topic and don't want to insult or upset anyone but we are genuinely struggling with this whether you agree with us or not...

DH and I are evangelical christians who believe that to be a practicing homosexual is a sin. However, we try very hard to 'love the sinner and hate the sin' IYKWIM. Thing is my SIL came out of the closet a couple of years ago and has now found a partner who she wants to form a civil partnership with. We have NEVER condemed or even commented on her feelings or her relationships. DH doesn't have a close relationship with his sis but still obviously cares deeply for her. We have met her partner a couple of times and made sure to include her at xmas etc. We really have tried to be as supportive as we can without condoning the relationship as we feel it is wrong.

Now we are faced with this civil partnership issue something we strongly disagree with. We would never do anything as drastic as trying to stop the ceremony - as they are adults and have made their choice. However we can't help feeling that if we attend the ceremony we will be openly agreeing with and blessing their relationship (which we don't). But we are stuck that if we don't go we really upset SIL and possibly destroy our relationship with her (and possibly upset MIL as well - but more concerned with SIL).

So we are stuck between family and belief both of which are very important to us.
Any advice would be gratefully received. Sorry for long post!

OP posts:
CarGirl · 30/09/2007 20:26

I have no idea what I would do either. However in discussing a similar situation with another Christian friend I reminded her that all sin is sin to God, so a hetrosexual couple having sex outside of their marriage is no different to God than homosexual sex.

Would you go to a wedding if it were a christian marrying a non-believer etc etc etc?

cluelessnchaos · 30/09/2007 20:32

I would have to support my family in whatever their decisions are, I for the record do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. We did have a discussion the other day about whether we should invite dhs cousin and his partner to stay for a visit and the answer was yes, the question is how we would explain the set up to the kids.

Debbiethemum · 30/09/2007 20:35

OK I can see where you are coming from (though I do not agree with you). But you are witnessing a civil contract, you are not taking part in ceremony so you are not taking vows that contradict what you believe in. Would you attend a Jewish wedding?

I had no problem with J (a Jewish friend of ours) being an usher at our wedding or attending his. But I couldn't let dh ask him to be Godfather to DS because of the vows and he probably would have been just as unhappy saying the vows.

What I am trying to say (very badly) is that you are not necessarily agreeing with their beliefs by atending the ceremony just wishing her well.

3Ddonut · 30/09/2007 20:36

Isn't the Christian thing to do to love your family and to forgive? I would think that to support your SIL is the more Christian thing to do than boycott the wedding, if your feeling is that strong that it is a sin, would you even view their civil partnership as a 'true marriage'?

I don't see homosexuality as a sin, personally so my viewpoint is different to yours obviously, just trying to see it from your view. HTH.

DaisyMOO · 30/09/2007 20:40

If you refuse to attend the ceremony you risk damaging your relationship with your SIL forever. Christianity IMHO is about your relationship with others as well as God. Going to the civil ceremony does not require you to make any declarations yourselves, and what they do themselves is between them and God (if they believe).

pooka · 30/09/2007 20:42

I suppose that it's difficult for non-believers (like me) to understand this kind of dilemma. Personally I would like to think that however much I disapproved of my sibling's life choices, I would want to celebrate their happiness, if those choices made them happy.
It is a civil ceremony, a demonstration of their committment to each other. While you believe that their relationship is sinful, would it not be possible for you to see it rather as their celebration of love? A love that you cannot "condone" but love that they feel inspite of that.
I have tried to think of analogies that would apply, but am struggling (Sunday eveningitis). I suppose the only similar thing, that has previously been mentioned, is what would you do if, say, your children decided to live with a partner before marriage? Because that is a sin, isn't it? Or what if they had children out of marriage? Or married a non-christian. Do you think that you would think first of the fact that they are your family and you love them unconditionally, or would you take a stand against them, even if it meant you weren't able to have a relationship with them?
Like I've said, it's easy for me to say, because I am not religious and so I don't have religious beliefs regarding these things.

MaryBS · 30/09/2007 20:44

I can sympathise on this, as at some point I can see the same thing happening. DH's niece is also in a relationship with a woman. They had a baby together last year, and we went to the baptism, although at first I wasn't sure quite how I'd feel about it, particularly as they aren't churchgoers. It turned out fine, and we had a lovely day!

A civil partnership is a different matter, particularly if its a big do. How would you cope with overt displays of affection? Are many of their friends gay? Are you likely to have to "stand up" for your beliefs - perhaps resulting in a scene (not necessarily of your making, sometimes just BEING a Christian is enough!)

Also, does your SIL know of your beliefs re: homosexuality? Is she tolerant of your religious beliefs? How about if you agree to attend the party afterwards? Is there perhaps another way of compromising, without compromising your beliefs? You are being sensitive to how they would feel, are they equally sensitive to how you feel?

Sorry, lots of questions...

Katisha · 30/09/2007 20:45

FWIW I agree that it's better not to alienate your SIL and other family and to keep the channels of communication open. Who knows when you might need/want those channels to be open and not firmly and resentfully (on their part) closed?

Twiglett · 30/09/2007 20:48

I'm not religious (couldn't resist the title though)

Here's my take on it

If you are religious then you should believe it is up to God to judge surely and not up to you.

A civil partnership is just that, it is a civil matter with no religious overtones ... it is you who are bringing the 'blessing' concept into play

StarryStarryNight · 30/09/2007 20:49

I always believed that it was up to God to sit in judgment, not us humans.

StarryStarryNight · 30/09/2007 20:49

crosspost Twiglet

Donk · 30/09/2007 20:50

A civil partnership is explicily a CIVIL partnership and may not include any religious elements whatsoever.
However I can see your dilemma - even if I don't share it. Somehow balancing your own integrity with caring for the person whom you believe to be 'sinning'
Other than reiterating that it is a purely civil ceremony which my not legally include anything religious, I can't really help.

scienceteacher · 30/09/2007 20:50

If faced with the same situation, I'd probably do nothing - ie neither condemn the relationship, nor support it.

Original poster
mumclaire · 30/09/2007 20:51

Thanks for your replies - I do see your points - on a similar vein we have had her and partner to stay - we insisted on separate beds - which is also what we insist on when my brother and his girlfriend come to stay - so we are trying to be as equal as possible. Also totally acknowledge that sin is sin and our lives are by no means perfect - we all sin and need forgiveness.

I think the sticking point with civil partnerships with us is that they are viewed as 'weddings' which they are not. To us a wedding is a union made before God and created by God therefore it would be the whole treating it as a wedding thing that we would find difficult. So whereas yes we would go to a hetrosexual friends wedding I would struggle to go to a civil partnership ceremony. IYSWIM

OP posts:
edam · 30/09/2007 20:53

I'm with Twig, it's up to God to judge. It may not be your choice, but it's not up to you to decide for them. Jesus hung out with the sinners, the poor and despised, not the Pharisees, remember?

He also defended the woman caught in adultery. Cast not the first stone and all that.

CarGirl · 30/09/2007 20:53

on a personal note I would find it hard to stomache if it was done in a big white wedding way, fortunately by friends who are considering a civil partnership are of the opinion that it is a cp not a wedding! If they do get cp'd and I am invited (better be) I will attend because I will always be there for her and I've already explained to her that I see her sexually relationship on no different terms to my own misdemeanours.

it's very easy to fall into the trap of seeing homosexuality as a "worse sin" but they're not graded are they (apart from sin against the Holy Spirit). The book "What's so Amazing about Grace" is a really good read and challenged my perceptions of how we should view ourselves and others.

Heated · 30/09/2007 20:54

My grandfather was the most devout, principled and kindly man I know (to the point of councelling the man who burgled him). He attended his grandchild's wedding (my cousin) despite his personal beliefs regarding secular ceremonies and second marriages because of the three guiding principles of love, faith and charity, the greatest of these being love. He never imposed his views or lectured, but in his ministry and his quiet way we knew what he believed, and for these qualities he was greatly loved in return.

themildmanneredjanitor · 30/09/2007 20:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StarryStarryNight · 30/09/2007 20:56

mumclaire, if you were invited to a civil service for the wedding of two heterosexuals, (non christians), would you decline because it is a wedding in your opinon and them not Christian? What you are saying does not make sense. A wedding is not necessarily a religious term. A church wedding is religious a civil wedding isnt

geekgirl · 30/09/2007 20:59

I'm an atheist but also couldn't resist clicking

If you feel that attending the ceremony would be a strain for you (which it sounds like) could you maybe write a nice card telling them that you love them and wish them happiness in their lives, but that due to your religious beliefs you feel uncomfortable about the ceremony? Maybe arrange a family dinner a week later instead?

That way they won't feel condemned by you (hopefully) and you won't have to hide your feelings in front of lots of people.

Twiglett · 30/09/2007 21:00

but once again, surely that is you CHOOSING to view it as a wedding

it is a civil partnership, it is not a religious ceremony but a legal one .. fine so there may be celebrations around it .. but it is not a wedding in the eyes of your church so why choose to view it as a wedding?

surely by doing so you are necessarily setting yourself up to have to judge and stand apart from the day and take a position it really doesn't sound like you wish you to take

I am trying to give you a thought process here that you may be able to use to rationalise your attendance if you so wish to do so

Original poster
mumclaire · 30/09/2007 21:00

Sorry not keeping up with posts - please understand we are not trying to judge them although I can see it coming across that way. Its more about do we compromise OUR beliefs to attend something we don't believe is right. If we did go we would definitely not make a scene - this is a personal decision for us not a public one. We are trying to do the loving thing but feel we have to set limits somewhere for ourselves iyswim.

OP posts:
walbert · 30/09/2007 21:02

Why not go to the ceremony to show that you love your sil and go to help her enjoy her day rather than your presence being a confirmation of supportingf her sexuality? As Debbiethemum says, go to wish her well: as a catholic, i am aware that our beliefs are that there is a higher power to 'judge', so don't feel that such a position has to be taken by you and your dh about your sil. Go, have a lovely day and hope that this will be a long lasting loving, commited, faithful union

Twiglett · 30/09/2007 21:03

surely though YOUR beliefs dictate how you should lead your lives they do not dictate how those around you should

Yorky · 30/09/2007 21:03

Its tricky isn't it. I am also a regular churchgoer, and my brother came out a couple of years ago - hasn't had a formal long term partner though. I will be there for him if he needs me, whether its relationships or other difficulties - as I would for my married brother. As long as your SIL understands your opinions your husband should be there for her, even if you can't be happy with all her choices