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Original poster

Need some Christian advice please - warning controversial!

151 replies

mumclaire · 30/09/2007 20:21

Never posted on this topic before but really need some advice with an issue dh and I are really struggling with. Know this is a sensitive topic and don't want to insult or upset anyone but we are genuinely struggling with this whether you agree with us or not...

DH and I are evangelical christians who believe that to be a practicing homosexual is a sin. However, we try very hard to 'love the sinner and hate the sin' IYKWIM. Thing is my SIL came out of the closet a couple of years ago and has now found a partner who she wants to form a civil partnership with. We have NEVER condemed or even commented on her feelings or her relationships. DH doesn't have a close relationship with his sis but still obviously cares deeply for her. We have met her partner a couple of times and made sure to include her at xmas etc. We really have tried to be as supportive as we can without condoning the relationship as we feel it is wrong.

Now we are faced with this civil partnership issue something we strongly disagree with. We would never do anything as drastic as trying to stop the ceremony - as they are adults and have made their choice. However we can't help feeling that if we attend the ceremony we will be openly agreeing with and blessing their relationship (which we don't). But we are stuck that if we don't go we really upset SIL and possibly destroy our relationship with her (and possibly upset MIL as well - but more concerned with SIL).

So we are stuck between family and belief both of which are very important to us.
Any advice would be gratefully received. Sorry for long post!

OP posts:
harrisey · 01/10/2007 00:08

still preening over the fact that madamez doenst think I am a miserable dumbfuck!!!!

Hooooray!!!!

(positive Cheisitan witnesssw LOL)

wildpatch · 01/10/2007 00:16

in answer to op.
i think soemtimes we have to do things with family we dont agree with. it's a case of swallowing our own ideas, adn just going along andbeeing civil polite.
for example,my cousin married a non pratcising christian.she is a muslim, non practising. muslim girls cannot legally be married to non muslims, so she is technically living in sin. mymother was very upset about this, and did not want to go to her house when she invited us all for dinner, dad made her come along. and she ended up liking the bloke. she still has huge moral, ethical issues with it all, but for the sake of family harmony, hasnt voiced them. and of course the fact that she doesnthave to see them more than once every five years, or even less probly helps
in your situation, i would go along to the civil ceremony. it is a family wedding. go, be pleasnat andbe polite. and then just come home. and thats that.

Original poster
mumclaire · 01/10/2007 01:00

Couldn't sleep so getting back on MN!
Thank you so much for all your posts...

Firstly, 12lb - I am completely shocked at the point of view I do not agree with that at all. There are huge differences of opinion on this subject - as has been demonstrated on this thread. Please don't assume because we say one thing we automatically mean another.

Maybe I have been a little too honest - just to be clear - why I have written this is that we are really trying to sort through a what is a very difficult issue for us. I think with any issue we all reach our 'line' whether it is something big and controversial like this or something very minor like if you like/hate marmite this is demonstrated everyday all across MN! I do think we have been supportive and loving to SIL so far but we have reached our 'line' with this ceremony
Why I asked for Christian advice (and do feel I have got it! thanks harrisey espec) is that our faith has come to mean a lot to us and very much shapes our lives and how we react to things. We are by no means perfect and have not got everything sorted. Its precisely issues such as these that help us work through things and help us figure out how to live out our faith.
We are all guilty of being judgemental sometimes even just in our thoughts but its how we react that is important. We can only try as best we can to do the 'right thing' and I do feel we have tried really hard to be non-judgemental in this situation.
Harpischord - thank you for your honesty - your post has helped me enormously. I have huge respect for you. You are right it is about them and sometimes we have to swallow hard and do things we don't like/approve of.
We will probably end up going to the ceremony but in all honesty will really struggle with it (can't help the way we feel).
I think I just needed a place to sort my head out and as usual MNetters have come to the rescue - a problem shared....

OP posts:
SueBaroo · 01/10/2007 11:17

One of my good friends is an evangelical Christian who is still very close to a friend of hers from where she comes from. She had a similar dilemma to you MC, when he and his partner decided to get CP'd. She went in the end because she felt it was more important to leave lines of communication open, and it all boiled down to being 'in the world' anyway, so there really isn't any way to 'avoid' stuff like this.

But that's OK, that's why the bible gives us principles and guidelines, rather than a nice easy checklist, because we'll always face different issues depending on when we live.

I don't know any gay people anymore, myself, they all shunned me when I became a Christian and split up with my girlfriend.

Blu · 01/10/2007 12:53

ahem - re posts by Harrisey, Ladymuck etc - but the context of the tninking is still that you would support mc's SIL on the basis that Christ would have have supported her amongst a selection (variously) of prostitutes, tax collectors, drunkards and disreputable characters. The main thrust of the approach still sounds like 'she engages in sin but I will do my very best not to judge'.

The issue is that judgement arises in the first place.

harrisey · 01/10/2007 13:15

No, my thrust is that I don't judge. That's God's job, not mine.

Though I am a Christian I count myself amongst the tax collectors and sinners - and the fabulous thing is that Jesus came to people like me.

SueBaroo · 01/10/2007 13:18

Blu, I don't want to speak for Harrisey, etc. but I have a feeling that the whole 'support in spite of the fact that someone is a sinner' is in the context of everyone falling short and being a sinner. It's not an 'us and them' thing. It's an 'us' thing.

SueBaroo · 01/10/2007 13:19

x-posted Harrisey, but I think I kind of got it right, lol.

TellusMater · 01/10/2007 13:35

Hmm.

I think I am a bit of a self-centred Christian. I tend to focus on myself, and my behaviour, rather than that of others.

I cannot tell how God judges our behaviour. And I would never second guess Him based on our imperfect understanding. I listen to my conscience where my behaviour is concerned. And that is all I can do.

UnquietDad · 01/10/2007 13:39

Another atheist here, who can't help asking that question some Christians wear on wristbands: "What Would Jesus Do?" I don't think a guy who hung around with Pharisees, tax-collectors and other social outcasts would have much of a problem attending a gay civil partnership.

If JC were around today, he'd be shaking hands with AIDS sufferers and ASBO kids.

Blu · 01/10/2007 13:42

harrisey and soobaroo - thank you for that clarification - I understand that.

harrisey · 01/10/2007 14:10

UQD - you're so right!!

(I dont know if I have ever said that before )

SueBaroo - great minds!

meowmix · 01/10/2007 14:32

Has she asked you to approve/condone/endorse her partnership or has she asked you to attend a family event?

YOU are the ones thinking you and your beliefs are so overwhelmingly important that your mere presence will be seen as giving God's approval, and your absence condemning the partnership. She, and the majority of her guests, are not thinking in that way. Get over yourselves.

Sorry but its not your place to judge (or to pray for them after unless they ask you to do so, and honestly it is immensely patronising to me when they/you do that). You go because you are family, because she accepts you and your choices despite the fact that you don't accept her and her choices. To be absolutely honest that seems a far more christian way of living than yours to me.

harrisey · 01/10/2007 14:35

meowmix - if people wnt to pray, in private, for other people, how is that patronising?

I pray for people every day who dont know/ask. It never occured to me that that was a patronising thing to do. If I want the best for people and choose to think that this can be gained by praying for them, then what's wrong with that?

SueBaroo · 01/10/2007 14:37

I'm always amused that everyone's an expert on what is and isn't christian.

TellusMater · 01/10/2007 14:45

How do you mean Sue?

harpsichordcarrier · 01/10/2007 14:52

well it's not all that mysterious is it?
I mean we leave in a predominantly Christian country. if you were edicated in this country then in all probability you were taught the tenets of Christianity in school (in many cases a school run by the Church), and took part in daily acts of observance.
many of us also went to Sunday School, church, Brownies, Guides, church youth groups.
we may even have read the Bible.
the principles of Christianity and the story of Jesus's life is not a huge secret it is right at the centre of British culture.

harpsichordcarrier · 01/10/2007 14:53

are not a huge secret... sorry

SueBaroo · 01/10/2007 14:53

I mean people who have made it clear they're not Christians saying 'I think the christian way is such and such', or 'Christianity is about blah de blah'

The OP has made it clear that this is an issue for her, and she's asked for Christian advice on how to approach it.

I just don't get why people feel the need to come on and tell her that her understanding of her own faith is wrong and this shouldn't be an issue at all.

Tortington · 01/10/2007 14:54

let god do the judging.

just be good people.

TellusMater · 01/10/2007 14:59

But some of us who have posted on here are also Christian (well, Catholic ), and my Christian advice would be that it shouldn't be a big issue.

SueBaroo · 01/10/2007 15:03

Oh, right. If I said in conversation that this was still a Christian country, I'd be flamed within an inch of my keyboard. (and I'd probably be marked down as a daily mail reader too).

SueBaroo · 01/10/2007 15:04

Actually, never mind, I actually agreed with most of the posts that said 'Go and be more concerned with showing love than rules and regs'

I'm just pre-menstrual and itching for a fight. I'll save it up for dh.

Blu · 01/10/2007 15:12

SueBaroo - I know she asked for Christian advice and i am not a practising Chritian...the things I have said are because I think that is she wishes to keep a happy family relationship she needs to see the issue from a perspective other than her own, because clearly her SIL does not have the same perspective. I can't give Christian advice - but can give my perspective on what it means to be a happy family - which she says is equally important!

And it's still niggling in my brain that the poor SIL is NOT a kid with an ASBO or a prostitute or a drunkard even a tax-collector, as far as we know, and is probably a teacher or pet shop owner or nurse and an all round thoroughly lovely woman, so not sure why she should be hard to mix with in any way at all!

hunkermunker · 01/10/2007 15:12

I like to quote President Josiah Bartlet in matters of religion. He puts it so much better than I could:

"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?

While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?

Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?

Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side?

Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?"

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