Atheist's corner

[ollieplimsoles]

Can I post this here?

Had a look through some of the other pages and couldn't see anything similar, so starting this off, don't know if ill get many replies but we'll see.

Basically a thread for non believers, skeptics and people who have left religion/ escaped religious cults and turned to atheism.
To chat, friendly respectable debate, and to ask questions. People of faith obviously also welcome!

Enjoying showing people that they are wrong is goady.

Only if done goadily! My DH, DD and I quite often enjoy a discussion in which one or other of us is proved wrong. It is perfectly reasonable to enjoy someone else gaining a more accurate understanding of something.

Well there's weak atheism and strong atheism.
Weak atheism = a lack of evidence to prove the existence of God
Strong atheism = evidence to disprove the existence of God

"Well there's weak atheism and strong atheism."

No there isn't.

What Bert said.

You cannot prove a god does not exist, just as you cannot prove one does.

Atheists can say "I don't accept your god hypothesis, I don't see any evidence for a god, therefore I think it is safe to assume one doesn't exist". Or something like that.

That doesn't mean you can't suggest that childhood cancer etc., aren't evidence against the postulated god theory.

I find it more fun to argue against things like whether or not the Jesus character existed. You'll still find many, if not most, theists are convinced that there is conclusive evidence that he did exist. OK, it may be an easy win, but I'm just lazy.

I don't actually care much whether Jesus actually existed or not. He may have done-there is no real evidence either way. Even if he did, he was not the son of god, he did not perform miracles and he did not rise from the dead.

I'm sure you could have implicit atheism, but I think that could only come about by being brought up in a society that was already comfortably atheist. By 'comfortably' I mean not even bothering to mention the concept of deity, not being militant about it.

I think it's in human nature to develop the concept of deity, and then only to relinquish it with the development of empirical thinking. I wonder whether there are any societies (cultures?) which have never had a god?

"Atheism is not always about the rejection of god, it can mean to be unaware of the idea of god too- hence implicit."

What, as in the case of the hypothetical boy raised by wolves who never met another human?

Anyone else will have come across the idea of a God since early childhood.

What, as in the case of the hypothetical boy raised by wolves who never met another human?

There have been documented cases of children raised among animals for at least prolonged periods. They are as beloved to psycholinguists as survivors of brain bullet wounds are to neuroscientists. I don't know if their spiritual development or otherwise was studied alongside other areas.

Would you count members of implicitly atheistic religions as implicit atheists? If the society and social structure is intertwined with those religions then a child would grow up assuming their locale was the norm as we all do.

there are as many positions on atheism as there are on theism
Huh, is it just some thiests that are ignorant or is it all of them. There is only one position on atheism, there is no god. End of.

A belief in supreme deities only emerged after complex cultures had already formed. Moralizing high gods are tools of control used by purveyors of religion to cement their grip on power, as soon as you have a large society generating lots of goods and services, this wealth can be put to use by someone who can grab the reins of power. The most immediate way to do this is to align yourself with a supreme deity and then make lists of things people can and cannot do, and these become ‘morals’ when applied to our social behaviour.

To me weak atheists are agnostic and 'meh' about religion and God whereas proper atheists like the sound of their own voice and are usually found on a Saturday morning inviting Mormons and Witnesses inside for some friendly debate, aka, me!

To me weak atheists are agnostic and 'meh' about religion

That's not what 'agnostic' means, as already discussed. agnosticism is just the philosophical recognition that proof of disproof of a deity isn't possible. An agnostic can then have weak or strong beliefs in any direction - atheistic, monotheistic, pantheistic.

I think the best word to describe 'weak atheists' is apatheist. Probably no god but basically it's unimportant to any aspect of their lives.

Whats this new idea of being a strong or a weak atheist? Is it a theist ploy to try and claim strong atheists are nutters extreme fundamentalists and weak atheists aren't really atheists, they are just theists who are struggling with their faith.

It doesn't really make sense. A theist believes in a god, an atheist doesn't accept that belief. Its a black or white issue, you can't choose a belief, you either have it or you dont.

Are there strong and weak theists? A strong theist fanatically actually believes in a god and a weak theist couldn't give a crap doesn't really believe, they are just pretending.

I have met a few Christians who try and turn atheism in to a religion to make them feel better about their own irrational religion. Or they conflate atheism with other belief systems like Humanism, Communism, or even Satanism. Atheism is not a belief system.

The concept of strong/weak atheist doesn't work forme, with its implied value judgement. Apatheism OTH sums it up perfectly. (And I've just learned a lovely new word - thanks!)

There are no "degrees of atheism" You are an atheist or you are not. All this strong or weak atheist stuff is just bollocks.

boo

Do you mean are the one inviting them in for debate? Or you are being invited in?

Yes it could be argued that was goady of me to raise the no vaccines issue, I know stone anti vaxxers and although I do nit agree with them, they have spent lots of time researching. I brought it up because these two heard a guy at church talking and it and decided god gave us everything to fight the diseases that he sent so vaccines cause more harm than good.

I think over complication if the word 'atheism' leads to the theists describing us as a 'religion' which annoys me no end. It's true some people who identify as atheist are 'active' they have researched theist claims and debate religion. Others are happy to forget god / religion and just get on with life nit thinking about it.

I still define atheism as the lack of belief in a deity. Just that.

"I still define atheism as the lack of belief in a deity. Just that."

That's because that's what the word means. No more, no less. Despite the efforts of others to make it into a belief system.

Exactly Bertrand,

Have you found that its other atheists attempting to make it a belief system, or theists?

Ive found plenty if theists who cant seem to let it go that its not, but also some atheists slip up by saying things like 'atheists support gay rights' which isn't always the case.

halfpint

I love your post, in my area there are lots if Mormons and the kids attend all the clubs and activities the church lays on. I absolutely agree they get kids young and get them to associate the church with positivity, togetherness and security. Why would you choose to leave that?

Its almost like Stockholm syndrome.

I have tried to bring my DC up as critical thinkers, and when their primary school was promoting an after school/holiday club which 'just happened' to be held in a church hall, I didn't have a problem when they wanted to attend. I did some research and it sounded fun, it was explicitly stated that no religion was being promoted, there was no worship involved etc. it was just a kids club.

So they did a week of holiday club (which they enjoyed). Next half term I asked if they wanted to go back. NO, they responded because. When they ate food, they had to pray. They drew pictures ... of Noah's ark. They made craft things ... of a cross. They sung songs ... of jesus/god. They were read stories ... from the bible. It was boring.

This was CofE, I find that scary.

I have brought my kids up to challenge religion.

Their primary school has a very religious head teacher, the whole school was infected by religious teachers, every day they had some indoctrination, were taught bible stories as fact etc.

I had to debug them on a daily basis, challenge and counter their views.
Happily as young adults they are atheists and have a disrespect for religion.

10 years ago, there were so many Christian teachers at my ds's state school that they help prayer meetings in the staff room at lunch time.

Its truly shocking and its what happens when religious views are for some reason afforded automatic respect.

I'm leaning towards westray 's method at the moment. I was harmed very by a christian teacher when I was about 6-7, this was at a non religious primary. There were many children in that class who belonged to muslim, hindu and Jewish families, but it didn't stop here making everything about her beliefs.

I'm not having my DD scared shitless because her teacher taught her some crap like hell is a real place.

walking our baby/toddler group is at a church hall and run buy volunteers at the church, I go and pay my money but every circle time they play this lame youtube video about children being in God's hands and try to get them all fired up about it. I chose that time to give my DD a biscuit and get her coat on.....

ollie- I was a little sad when I found myself having to to take an anti christian stance with my kids.

I sent my kids to a " non faith" school. In fact there is no such thing in the UK. Even " non faith" schools are actually non denominational, and have a legal requirement to "lead active christian worship" in school.
So basically any teacher or head has remit to be a christian maniac.
I was elected as a school governor and served many years, I helped in school and trips,, and spent a lot of time in classrooms.
assemblies.
The christian influence was unavoidable. Most of the teachers were christian. Every day was peppered with christian attitudes and comments. "oh look it's sunny isn;t god wonderful", bible stories, assemblies etc.
I took an anti christian attitude at home to redress the balance.

Oh that's awful,

My teacher wasn't so much 'isnt god wonderful' as she was 'god is watching you' one little boy stepped on stepped on a worm in the playground and the girls were all hysterical because it was 'one of gods creations'- everything was. She was an awful teacher that had no control over the class either.

and have a legal requirement to "lead active christian worship" in school.

Well that's the christian privilege rampant in uk today...

Just wanted to share this, Richard Dawkins did 'The Christmas Lectures' in the early 90's for the Royal Institution. They are available on youtube (link to first one below) and they are WONDERFUL. Particularly to pp's with creationist family members- great to watch with your kids.

and he was a total piece of ass back in' day