Atheist's corner

[ollieplimsoles]

Can I post this here?

Had a look through some of the other pages and couldn't see anything similar, so starting this off, don't know if ill get many replies but we'll see.

Basically a thread for non believers, skeptics and people who have left religion/ escaped religious cults and turned to atheism.
To chat, friendly respectable debate, and to ask questions. People of faith obviously also welcome!

Excellent post Anon, I hadn't thought of the issue that way. I work in a secondary faith school and once when a student found out I wasn't religious asked me how I knew right from wrong. I had to take a big breath before I answered that one politely. I find it slightly worrying that the child assumed that I wouldn't be able to judge right from wrong if I didn't attend church.
I may start asking the question back although I already antagonise them so probably best I keep my mouth shut or move schools!

When I am asked that question I answer, "I have a brain, I work out the right thing to do its not rocket science ".

Like in this example who would you rather be friends with? A person who has worked out that hitting other people is wrong and so chooses not to hit others.

Or a person who's god parent has told them bulling others is wrong and if caught hurting someone they will get eternal damnation six of the best when they die get home. So they are a 'nice' person when god is watching in public ... but when in private? is that what child abusing priests thought?

oh we have a corner?

hi!! waves

I am always alarmed when someone asks "but if you are an atheist, where does your morality come from?" I don't think all theists think this by any means. But the person asking - I kind of want to run away because I think they must have no sense of basic humanity.

Just wanted to post this link to the secular Sunday assemblies.

Seems to be very popular where I live.

And I'd like to reproduce the motto of the Sunday Assembly here, as it seems so apt.

Live Better, Help Often, Wonder More

As atheists, I think that the ‘help often’ is an objective we have to hold particularly fast to. We have just as much right to cherish and aspire to goodness as believers.

love that motto - may put it up in my classroom and yes totally agree that we have just as much right to aspire to goodness as believers.

anon its easy enough to answer the question about where my morality comes from, just slightly harder to be polite about it.

Hello lovely aethiest friends, I am a Christian with mainly aethiest friends. My family don't believe in God. I became a Christian in my 30's. I hav sadly experienced aethiests friends dropping me because of my belief. I have not, I repeat have not tried to convert anyone! They just stopped contacting me over time becaus they couldn't accept me going to church although it wasn't something I really talked about as it I knew they were very anti Christianity so I was too scared of them having a go at me t mention it. They were very intolerant. Happily I still have friends who are aethiests who are happy to still talk to me!
I do think aethiests have a very skewed view of Christians sometimes. Internet research isn't the same as actually going to a church to find out what Christians actually think. If you mainly view or read anti Christian things you aren't going to get a balanced view.
If it's alright I would like to address a few points I have seen on this thread.
Paedophile priests. A terrible terrible thing.No excuse. However plenty of paedophiles are aethiests so I don't see how aethiests can condem Cgristians for it any more than they can condo aethiests. Paedophiles go to great lengths to have access to children. Some may spend many years befriending a family, some marry to gain access (you are most likely be to abused by someone within your family), becoming a Scout leader, becoming a sports coach, becoming a TV personality etc The church failed this abised by kit having adequate child protection as did many organisations at that time eg BBC. I am pleased to say the church now have very robust child protection. I have done child protection courses through my church and work and both were equally robust.
The Bible. It isn't claimed to be written by God or be the word of God. It is written by humans who witnessed events at that me in history and was culturally appropriate for that time (eg slaves etc) Christians do not take it literally but rather take the lessons from it. The Bible is very compatible with evolution (first God made the planets, then the seas, then land, then plants, then animals then man, even the Pope has said evolution is correct) and all the Christians I have ever spoke to believe in evolution AND DINOSAURS!
Most Christians are very welcoming to gay people. We have plenty of gay clergy. Yes you can find samples of Christians who don't think gay people should get married in church which I think is shameful but you can also find example of aethiests who are anti gay.
Same for anti abortion. There are also aethiests anti abortionists protesting outside clinics. There are plenty of Christians who are pro choice.
Christians have done great good in this world, hospitals, schools, many large charities, abolition of slavery etc. Our church runs a night shelter, the city basics bank, a counselling centre, prison coffee shop for visitors.
Christians don't do good works in order to go to heaven. No one not even Mother Teresa is good enough to go to heaven on their own merit. Everyone screws up. Goodness knows I do despite trying to be nice I often get bad tempered etc. We believe we can go to heaven because Jesus already paid the price for our wrong doings already (and everyone else's). We are encouraged to serve others because we at taught to love our neighbour as ourselves (but God knows we will still sometimes mess that up), we are encouraged to tithe but not to shout about it. Again every Christian I know tithes.
Bad things have been done in the name of Chritianity eg the Crusades (although they were actually about conquering territory as that was how monarchs expanded their power in those days). Terrible shameful things have been done in the name of Chritianity. I can only say sorry for this. I would like to poin out though that North Korea, China, communist Russia, Stalin etc have also done terrible things. Aethiests have also killed people of faith because they didn't like their religion.
Bad people want power and will use whatever they can to get it. Recently we are seen examples of that but I do suspect if religion weren't there they would use something else eg Nationalism like Hitler to gain power.
I have no wish to change your views but I did want to put the other side across as sometimes I see real intolerance coming from aethiests and many incorrect views on Christians. I also find it very scary when aethiests say people should only be allowed to talk about religion inside their home or church. Freedom of expression should apply to all although i feel sometimes people should use it with more consideration.

The Bible. It isn't claimed to be written by God or be the word of God.

So why do many Christians claim it is the 'word of (a) god?

Most Christians are very welcoming to gay people

Yeah, you're right, they never quote Leviticus, unlike us atheists. We ask why you're eating prawns or bacon, or how you beat your slaves.

Bad people want power and will use whatever they can to get it. Recently we are seen examples of that but I do suspect if religion weren't there they would use something else eg Nationalism like Hitler to gain power.

Godwin! You do know that the dog loving Adolf claimed "Gott mitt uns" yes? The very same Christian who approved The Final Solution? Wow.

The case of Hitler is very interesting. Although he was nominally Catholic, he was privately contemptuous of religion. At the same time he wasn’t above forming allegiances with Christian leaders and harnessing the Church for his own purposes. He was able to tap into the rich seam of anti-semitism in Christian writings and persuade his followers that something had to be done about the Jews.

I include an illustration from a German children’s book of the time showing Jesus on the cross, with the caption underneath blaming the Jews for his horrible murder.

In short, Hitler was able to use the Christian narrative to incite hatred against the Jews.

And when you have a large group who have become convinced that faith and obedience in one area of their life is a good thing, there is always a danger that the same mindset will persist in other areas.

Hitler’s favourite bedtime reading was the Jews and their Lies by the Christian reformer Martin Luther. 'First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …'

Campfiresmoke Thanks for your opinion. You are right that their are intolerant people who are theists and atheists. There are also people who have been scared by religion and the church and as a result aren't very tolerant of the people that go there every week.

Paedophile priests What people find particularly abhorrent about them was how complicit the church was in covering up their behavior and its active participation in allowing it to continue.

The Bible ... is written by humans who witnessed events at that me in history and was culturally appropriate So how can anyone claim to get 'information' from it that is relevant to the modern world?

Also plenty of Christians insist the Bible is literally the word of God, or even 'inspired by' God.

The Bible is very compatible with evolution How can you claim that it is compatible with evolution and then say God made man? It can't be both.

Also plenty of Christians insist the Earth popped into existence 6,000 years ago and man was friends with the dinosaurs.

Most Christians are very welcoming to gay people And yet the C of E wont marry gay people. And the Catholic church deem them, "ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil".

Same for anti abortion And yet in parts of the UK abortion is illegal because of religious belief. The Catholic Church doesn't even allow contraception never mind abortion.

Christians have done great good in this world You mean people have done great good in this world, unless your implying Christians wouldn't do good if God didn't tell them to?

No one not even Mother Teresa I start to worry when people mention Mother Teresa as an example of moral virtue.

We believe we can go to heaven because Jesus already paid the price for our wrong doings already (and everyone else's) Its this sort of language that gets atheists heckles up. We dont appreciate you saying a blood sacrifice was made in atonement for sins we didn't commit. Its quite upsetting really.

Aethiests have also killed people of faith because they didn't like their religion I am not aware of anyone ever having killed in the name of Atheism. I could be wrong. Certainly aware of plenty of killing in the name of a god or gods.

aethiests say people should only be allowed to talk about religion inside their home or church
Never heard of this happening. Keep religion out of the work place and schools yes but no problem people talking about it in public. Although I do find it quite offensive when I go shopping to be shouted at by a preacher telling me how "Jesus is going to save my soul" or "the end is nigh".

That said the mood might be more intolerant of religion with all the religiously inspired terrorism at the moment.

Hi all,
I'm thrilled this thread has taken off and given non believers a place to chat. Its been a hectic couple of days with deadlines but I too want to pick apart campfires post, although I see a couple already have.

The morality issue is a huge one for me. Its like hundreds of years ago when religion dominated and belief in the bible was the cultural norm- nothing bad or murderous or immoral never happened!

I'll try and address a couple of points others haven't yet:

even the Pope has said evolution is correct ...this always makes me snort with derision, I mean- Darwin published his theory in 1859, in the past century scientists have tested and re tested evidence tirelessly, radiometric dating, carbon dating, cataloging, publishing, scrutinising... Evolution has passed every logical test and every counter theory based on painstakingly amassed evidence on the part of skilled scientists... But hang on...now 'even the pope ' agrees, then it simply MUST be true!!!!

The Bible is very compatible with evolution
Disagree heavily here, see- at least the evangelicals have the conviction to stick by their belief in creationism, because all evidence in the bible points to god creating the earth/ man / the universe. Of course, you are still blindly assuming there even is a creator- evidence in evolutionary science points to there not being one at all.

Of course the entire paragraph actually rests on the presupposition that there actually is a god- atheists by definition reject this.

Many different religions argue against evolution, including many of the christian faiths and I've had plenty of students in my classes tell me that evolution goes against what they've been taught in their church.

I think Campfire's post is very much from a Church of England view (or some other more liberal minded church).

It irritates me when people say but 'Christians do good work'. Do they only do because they are Christians or would they do it anyway? If they only do it because they are Christians and feel obliged, well, I find that quite sad, as you would hope they are doing it because its the right thing to do rather than because their religion suggests they do it.

Plenty of atheists do good deeds too without having to be told to!

Paedophile priests pissed people off because people looked to them for moral guidance and most importantly because the church covered it up for so long. It is the very role that you should have been able to trust and lets face it, it wasn't just one or two bad apples was it?

I think for me, I can't see the benefits of being religious.

I know good Christians/people of faith and I know not so good Christians/people of faith. I know good atheists and I know not so good atheists. Seems about even numbers of both.

So, other than the personal comfort that some people get by believing in god, what do we as a society really gain by people believing in god?

Sorry if its a bit rambling, my mind is slightly addled by alcohol tonight!

Sorry if its a bit rambling, my mind is slightly addled by alcohol tonight!

Dammit be careful! You'll make us look like the godless heathens we are

Out of interest, are there any non believers here who had a very religious upbringing?

Spent the afternoon with a dear friend who is increasingly depressed as the beliefs that came with a Mormon upbringing continue to unravel around her...

Great idea for a thread OP. I was brought up by Irish Roman catholic parents in Ireland. 99% of my extended family are catholic.

I've only told DH I'm atheist. If anyone asked me I would tell them but no one has

I was brought up quite religious, was one of those kids who was always asking questions but never got any intelligent answers. I never bought the idea of an invisible woman man in the sky saving us from a punishment he had given us because a woman ate an apple. Misogynist fucking god, why is it always the woman's fault?

Despite getting physically punished anytime I questioned her his existence I just never believed. Family and 3 siblings all still believe and I would be interested to know why I was the only one to not give in to the indoctrination?

I was well into religion from aged 10 to 35 but in an 'on and off' way. Parents weren't religious at all.

What made you turn away lucky?

I would be interested to know that too jamie I wonder if your siblings just found it easier to go along with your parents for an easy life.

I find it amazing the amount of (mainly) christians I speak to that say they ' live with doubt' about their faith everyday. Is almost like the rational mind is desperately trying to get through and to keep pushing the questions back must be exhausting.

When I explored faith in my teens, I experienced a warm fuzzy 'everythings going to be ok' kind of feeling, but the more I studied the bible, the more questions came up, like:

Why does the bible advocate slavery? (exodus 21, also comes up in Leviticus and Deuteronomy)
Why do christians say ' some things were ok back then? (rape, slavery, misogyny...) did god change?
If god is all powerful and wise, why is the bible so easily misconstrued, its almost like the barnum effect in a sense that there is something for everyone in there?

Just a few of many

Yes, OP, I had a religious upbringing, and I am an atheist.

The laugh is, my father became an atheist in his latter years, and died an atheist. I feel very conflicted about it all, tbh.

HappyWombat I am really surprised at you saying Australia is very religious. I've found the complete opposite. I did move here from Ireland where I found religion to be very invasive and difficult to avoid, so I have found Australia incredibly secular in comparison. The only religious people I know here are a couple of South Africans (Christian) and an Iranian (Muslim). I genuinely can't think of any religious Australians. Although I do live near a JW Kingdom Hall, a 7th Day Adventist church and a tiny mosque, so they are obviously out there!

As for me I've always been an atheist (never believed in Santa either). My Catholic MIL tricked me once into meeting her priest telling him I wanted to join the church. We had a very interesting discussion about morality and why I didn't need religion to bring my child up a moral person. He then told me I'd make a great Quaker!

My parents were loosely CofE, but only really went twice a year. By the time I was 7 or 8 I had pretty much determined that it was all rubbish.

I didn't think much about until 10 or so years ago, when started coming across people claiming that it was all fact. Looking into it, it became obvious how strong a hold the church had for so many centuries in not allowing anyone to question them (excommunication - which essentially meant poverty and death for the whole family), or even torture and nasty deaths for "heretics". It made me want to search for this "proof" that Jesus existed, that so many claim to be a "fact". What I discovered was that there is not a shred of contemporary evidence at all.

The other thing that always gets me, is that if, as a Christian, you don't believe in the whole Adam and Eve story as a fact - surely there's no "original sin" and therefore no need for the blood sacrifice bit involving the crucifixion? When I say "the" other thing, there's actually quite a lot, but that seems to be so central to it all...

It's like an endless loop isn't it? Adam and Eve never happened, so why did Jesus have to die horribly to forgive humanity? And why do some christians still believe in original sin (my neighbours are evangelicals and they do) ? If Jesus died for us? And obviously the main question in all this:

If almighty god wanted to forgive our sins, WHY DIDNT HE JUST FORGIVE THEM?

What religion were you raised in Liney ? so sorry you have lost your dad, did he ever say why he lost his faith?

Hi, Ollie, we are (were) Methodists. My father discovered Richard Dawkins, and that, as they say, was that.