Atheist's corner

[ollieplimsoles]

Can I post this here?

Had a look through some of the other pages and couldn't see anything similar, so starting this off, don't know if ill get many replies but we'll see.

Basically a thread for non believers, skeptics and people who have left religion/ escaped religious cults and turned to atheism.
To chat, friendly respectable debate, and to ask questions. People of faith obviously also welcome!

I'm trying to raise my DC as "secular" (for want of a better word) and open minded as possible.

They have friends of all kinds of religious backgrounds, and they are aware of them, mostly. Just to the extent that people have different celebrations, traditions, etc. (We've attended Hannukah parties and Ayyam-a-hi celebrations but I doubt the significance of these were left on them.)

I'll be supportive of whatever they choose to believe, but when they do ask me my beliefs, I'm honest with them and say "Some people believe that. I/your Dad don't." And I try to explain why in child friendly ways.

I'm not in the UK so they attend school that is completely non-religious. Their education is very different to mine coming from Catholic school, especially in the 90s. My family is horrified by it and are constantly asking me if I'll ever send them to Catholic school so they can have the same experiences I had.

Like the time a nun yelled at me for crying for being bullied? No thanks.

I think its's important to give your child a good base of natural science before they get to school. So, we had the kiddie books on Space, and dinosaurs - small children can easily grasp a simple explanation of evolution, and the Big Bang - and also they can understand that we don't know the answer to everything but that scientists are always finding out more. Like Laplace, we have no need of the god hypothesis.

Also, an introduction to a few different sets of myths and legends, to put the currently extant ones into context - the Christian friend who gave DD nice books about the nativity and Noah's ark may not have realised they could be put on the shelf with the greeks and romans - the greeks have a flood myth too, and these stories can be read with disapproval of gods who drown people and animals. (And noah can happily end with thinking about how rainbows really occur).

So, DD was frankly incredulous to find when she went to school that many of the teachers appeared to actually believe in the stuff peddled in assembly or RE. When the little girl next door said something about animals being made by god she simply said, 'no, they evolved' - and in an entirely good-natured way she explained it. (She did pin then pin me down to state that I didn't believe in god myself, as up to then I'd been quite scrupulous about adhering to the 'some people believe this, others believe that' type neutrality. )

And she was delighted when she found in one of Anne Fine's (excellent) anthologies 'All things bright and beautiful' juxtaposed with Eric Idle's All things dull and ugly

Errol that's an excellent point!

When I was 13-14 and learning about the lives of the saints for my confirmation, I remember enjoying them the same way I enjoyed learning about mythology. It kind of dawned on me, only then, that I looked at the stories the same way; interesting but unbelievable. I think it's then that I started to really start to analyze my belief system.

My DC know about myths, and we have talked about the Big Bang. They're still very young, but I hope to impart the importance of having a strong basis in facts and science when learning about different beliefs.

Hopping onto this thread although I think I lean more towards being Agnostic

Noncommittal that's similar to how I became sceptical after being brought up Catholic! The stories were just that - stories. I don't think I ever 100% believed they happened even when I was younger, and now I'm older I see why they were comforting but I literally cannot see logical truth there.

It's funny what children raised in religion are taught to accept and believe.

A pregnant teenager carrying the son of God? True.

A warrior goddess who sprang fully formed from the God's head? False.

A man walked on water? True.

A war started between two countries because a man was in love with a king's wife? False.

I'm embarrassed to say I didn't catch on sooner.

I don't actually care much whether Jesus actually existed or not.

And that's fine, but I've found it interesting myself, and sometimes useful. Many theists have been told for as long as they've gone to church that many things they believe are "fact", including, and I've seen it on mumsnet along the lines that "it has been proved that Jesus existed". Showing them that, actually, there is no proof or even contemporary evidence, and considerable doubt about it, might spur them into thinking twice about other "facts" they have been unquestioningly accepting.

Just my opinion.

Welcome new people,
I'm really enjoying reading about how you are all teaching and discussing these issues with your children.

To the ex catholics- have you had your kids confirmed? I ask because it would grant the access to catholic schools, and many of them have very good ofstead ratings, I wondered if you would just 'play along' to get your kids into a decent school.

Could argue that any parent could do it but easier if you are already aware of the ins and outs having been raised in the faith

I personally have not, and as I'm not in the UK and don't have Ofsted, it wouldn't make a difference anyway. I can understand why one might in the UK, but would find it hard to reconcile with my children going to school learning about something I don't believe.

I ask because it would grant the access to catholic schools,
would it? Not to primaries, obviously (age) - the oversubscribed ones its baptism soon after birth followed by regular church attendance.

You do you have to actually attend the church as well errol my bil was confirmed and never set foot afterward in catholic church, bet he went to a catholic primary and secondary UK school! This is years ago though...

Oh, there are plenty of faith schools you can get your kids into without jumping through hoops - the undersubscribed ones can't turn kids away if they have space. Its the good ones which are oversubscribed and therefore can impose their list of priorities. In our area, we have vastly more faith school places than there should be in proportion to the number of normal churchgoers. Good, mediocre and poor ones. Go figure.

Pity we have no secular schools.

I don't really understand the strong/weak atheist either.

I was bought up catholic, FORCED to go to church every single week. Never asked what my views/opinions were, you are going to church and that is that.

I am an atheist now in that I definitely don't believe in god, but I wouldn't say I feel strongly enough to be really passionate about it/get annoyed by Christians.

The only thing that annoys me is when either 'side' is disrespectful to the other eg when atheists openly 'diss' Christians in public or one to one, telling them that they are just believing in a fairytale or are brainwashed etc. And conversely when Christians think we just 'haven't seen the light' etc etc.

Similarly evangelism does annoy me. I have no problem at all with anyone talking about their faith/belief. I 100% respect it and if that belief is something that brings them great comfort and happiness then brilliant, I am happy for them. I have one very close friend who is very religious and I know that belief has bought great comfort to her during some terrible times in her life. Just because I don't have the same belief it doesn't mean that I can't be pleased that she has a belief that has helped her. I wouldn't care if she said she believed in Father Christmas and that had helped her, my only concern was her well being at that time.

But similarly, be respectful of my beliefs. Don't patronise me/them by trying to convert me. Just accept that I have a different view which is just as valid as your belief. And if I am happy to listen to your beliefs about there being a god, then listen to my beliefs that there isn't and respect that.

The fact that you believe should be enough for you. Why isn't it? Why do you have to try and 'preach' to others and 'convert' them? My non-belief is enough for me. I don't have to go round trying to convert others to my way of thinking.

If someone stopped being friends with me because I didn't believe I would be appalled but it would tell me all I needed to know about them!

At the end of the day all any of us have is a belief, there is no proof either way. So be happy and content with your own beliefs and respectful of the beliefs of others, which are just as valid as yours

That's my view anyway!

At the end of the day all any of us have is a belief, there is no proof either way

No, I don't have a belief, that's a big difference.

A bit like me saying not playing football is a hobby.

The burden of proof is on the claimant.

I think you misunderstood what I meant

All I am saying is that all any of us have is our own views and we either believe in god or we don't. Those of us that don't believe can't prove there isn't a god and those that do believe can't prove there is a god

That's all

Those of us that don't believe can't prove there isn't a god

It's not up to the non believers to prove anything.

It's not us making the claims.

The onus of proof is on the people making the claims.

Westray

That is my point, I am not saying that anyone has to prove anything. No-one has to 'claim' anything, just believe what you believe and be respectful of what others believe.

Flipping back through the thread, I am with you. If someone asked me my own personal views they are that I find it astounding that anyone would believe in there being a god, to me it is so completely irrational and the bible itself is full of hypocrisies. I think a lot of people 'cling' to this belief to avoid actually facing what I believe are just the harsh realities of this world eg that sometimes life just really is shit!

But what I am saying is that, whilst that is my view, I am also mature/intelligent enough to acknowledge that that is purely what it is, just MY view and that doesn't make it fact.

Whilst my beliefs are at the opposite end of the scale to a believer, I can accept that their views are just as valid as mine. I'm not saying that anyone has to prove anything but that, actually, if it came to it no one would be ABLE to prove anything, either way.

What I don't like is when people are unable to do this, tell you that you are wrong, and thrust their views down your throat insisting they are right.

So be happy and content with your own beliefs and respectful of the beliefs of others, which are just as valid as yours

In an ideal world yes, but christians hold a privileged position, and indeed the church has helped to shape this misogynistic society that we
live in. So while I agree we should live and let live, the church has different ideas.

yes agreed.

I know what I am saying is very 'ideal world' fantasy and the world just doesn't work like that.

Many christians do believe they hold a privileged position. I find that very patronising but also quite revealing, in my humble opinion I think it displays a lack of intelligence to think like that

But the truth is they do hold a privileged position, their unelected representatives make laws, they force our children to worship in schools.
Not that long ago they would support the castration of homosexuals.

100% with westray here, welcome morley

Its terrible that you were dragged to church as a child, why anyone would happily take their child to a catholic church is beyond me.
Christians absolutely have privilege in the UK, and in the us the situation is awful, many of them believe the earth is less than 10000 years, and that evolution is 'just a theory' that should be taught alongside their bullshit as its equal.

I used to be a bit more to each their own about religious views, now I have a child I actively hate religion, and if an outspoken but well read atheist can reach just ONE homosexual teenager before their parents' belief system does and they kill themselves, then its all worth it in my book.

Can I resurrect this thread? I don't have anyone to talk to about this in RL.
I have only told DH that I do not believe in a god. My family are all christians. My DSis is a born again christian and is quite fervent. Does anyone have any advice on telling her without upsetting her.

Telling her that you don't believe in god?

Tell her if you need to. It's her choice whether to get upset or not.

I wouldn't give a rat's arse.

My sister is a " born again". I have caught her sprinkling holy water around my house and she has attempted to exorcise one of my kids.

My niece ( adult) was raised in a fervent home. Baptist school, no contact with non christians.

She is now an atheist, but feels she has been permanently damaged by her upbringing.

She shared this funny video- made by the "Non Stamp Collector" ( in response to those who think atheism is a belief system, akin to not collecting stamps can be called a hobby)

This animation explores Noah's dilemma when preparing for the flood.

Thanks for the advice Westray. Wow! I'm hoping she doesn't turn exorcist on us.

I really don't know how she will react. I haven't bothered telling anyone else because it's not really an issue.

DSis and DN are very involved in their church. It's a huge part of their lives so it's only a matter of time before it comes up.

Thanks for the link. I can't look at it right now as we are heading out but looking forward to looking at it later