Atheist's corner

[ollieplimsoles]

Can I post this here?

Had a look through some of the other pages and couldn't see anything similar, so starting this off, don't know if ill get many replies but we'll see.

Basically a thread for non believers, skeptics and people who have left religion/ escaped religious cults and turned to atheism.
To chat, friendly respectable debate, and to ask questions. People of faith obviously also welcome!

Atheists in America seem to wish RE was taught in state schools, because currently many kids only know about their (i.e. their parents') religion - that is the norm and True, other wordviews are completely alien and Wrong.

My view is that there should be factual teaching about a range of religions and philosophies. Definitely in the context of critical thinking and ethics, and without 'respect' or favour. A lesson on a lot of creation myths at once might make it clearer that your brand of myth is no different. So, it should become part of the National Curriculum properly, with no opt-outs for 'faith' and private schools. I'm not sure whether all teachers could be trusted to deliver the content in an unbiased fashion though... maybe nowadays videos could be used...

What there shouldn't be in schools is religious worship, and certainly no proselytising.

I think a big problem is that the Church has a say in politics, arguing the Church has 'good' morals and ethics, however, the queen is head of state AND head of the Church of England. I think moving towards a more secular society is best, (France has done it) because we are an increasingly multi-faith society, with Atheism on the rise too. I think the Church should have less say.
I think that teaching RE on a factual basis is a good idea, however, education fails to teach any sort of ethics, arguably they're quite young, but learning about how to use ethics on decision making (such as faith) is an invaluable skill.

DD did do some ethics in secondary (year 10 I think, she didn't do RS gcse) - discussions included e.g Utilitarianism. I think this is pretty standard. Some of the content of Citizenship and PSHE may also perhaps be considered to involve ethics?

Debate about god is BORING when it focuses on whether or not deity exists.

I agree! I'm more interested in religion, and why people follow them. I would even agree that RE in schools is quite pointless, it was more like box ticking in our schools.

It should be replaced by critical thinking lessons and religion could feature?

Don't engage in any debate you find boring.

I quite enjoy debates about whether God exists. Pointing out the fallacy of believers' "rationale" and helping them see that there is nothing defensible about a foolish belief in an imaginary friend never grows old imho

Oh yes cote I agree it always seems to come down to that.

I find the born agains quite like talking about it, and how awesome life is since Jesus entered them.
My neighbours and all there friends are born again and love bringing it up with me and dh. Our children are friends and I dont think its funny that they are bringing him up to believe the earth is less than 10000 years old.

In a way I kind of envy them, they seem to love life because they feel holy spirit enter them and they have this firm faith that gives them meaning. When in reality they're feeding this lie on endorphins and the release of feel good hormones they claim to be God. Why can't I have that ffs

they seem to love life

They don't, they complain constantly about their problems, how their son is behind in his development (even though he isn't) they argue, they don't speak to either of their families, then pray about it hoping it will get better.
They are also liars, they tell us things in debates that we go away and research and find its untrue. They cant even debate honestly. The husband has to be right in every circumstance and can never answer a question with "I don't know" which we do frequently, and the wife is short tempered and overly strict.

They then attempt to allude they are perfect because they are christian. Its contemptible.

I know what you mean though, I felt the same til I learned some self hypnosis tricks that can totally get you off your face on endorphins. Its so much better when you know its your own brain doing it

That is so true! I know not all religious people are as you describe Ollieplimsoles, but I feel an overwhelmingly large number of them are, they're religious out of self-justification and I feel as science becomes more and more advanced religion holds less significance. When will they realise their religion is outdated and false. Why worship something you can't even prove exists.

That's just goady baiting, Cote.

It's just as unpleasant as the BA family that Ollie describes: The husband has to be right in every circumstance and can never answer a question with "I don't know" . Exactly like many didactic atheists. Exactly like any fundamentalist in anything - my way is right and your way is wrong.

That's essentially human nature, the views we hold are the views that we think are right. Right and wrong are just concepts to feed people's superiority. However that being said I've just voiced my opinion on opinions, like your opinion that it's "goady bating" is it?

When in reality they're feeding this lie on endorphins and the release of feel good hormones they claim to be God

I was very amused to find, when after losing faith I first went to a non-christian pop concert that much the same experience was evoked. (And subsequently, different things creating the same effects I'd formerly thought were 'spiritual'.

The problem is that if you use any sort of analytical thinking, the idea of a God becomes absurd..........

I do not share the zeal of some of my fellow atheists. I have no appetite for pointing out to religious folk the flaws in their thinking. It makes me feel I don’t really belong in the atheism ‘tribe’, any more than in any of the religious ‘tribes’.

Einstein again:

Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics and comes from the same source.

But there's a difference between discussion and being determined to prove someone wrong.

Expressing an opinion is fine. Mowing the other person down because you don't like their opinion is objectionable.

Exactly, Outwith.

I like Einstein's view.

I find the most interesting discussions with religious people are those who know that their belief is essentially irrational- who accept it's a matter of faith and based largely on subjective experiences, not objective evidence or logic.

It can sometimes be hard to balance respecting a person versus respecting their beliefs - but some are not worthy of respect and sometimes need to be challenged. I'm personally very grateful (in retrospect) to people who engaged with me on religious belief when I was at university. For instance, I'd somehow failed to notice the circular arguments needed to support belief in the Bible (even as a non-fundamentalist). .

Schools near me in England do the RE GCSE entitled 'RE, Philosophy & Ethics'. Now I consider the course completely useless.

Firstly it intertwines religion with ethics, embedding with children that morality is a religious issue, governed and ruled upon by the various different church sects. It doesn't teach secular morality.

Secondly it is trying to teach children about 'other' religions. Admiral goal, but it fails spectacularly. It can't actually teach any 'facts' about religions because that would offend everyone, schools have to teach the fluffy sanitized versions of what each religion wants children exposed to, somehow managing to suspend critical thinking as they do. They only teach Christianity + 2 other religions which inevitably means Christianity, Islam and Judaism so hardly a mix of humanities 10,000 religions.

After 4 years of RE at secondary school my DC has learnt that most people believe in the Christian god who loves everyone, Muslim woman have made a free will choice to cover themselves and Jews have a funny shaped candlestick. Fuck all about the negative side of religion, fuck all about philosophy and fuck all about morality. Pupils treat the class as a joke and they usually spend the whole time watching various videos like 'Free Willy'.

Whilst I like the idea of a separation of religion and government, look whats its done in America. So I sort of support the idea of a vanilla CofE that stands for bugger all and just does the odd wedding and funeral thing.

I agree with errol and goody and let me make it clear, I'm very aware that not all followers of faith are like these people although funnily enough all their church friends appear to be.

Their beliefs are not worthy of respect the slightest, I don't know why they still talk us tbh.

Oh and this little gem- they don't vaccinate their son because he told us it interferes with the immune system god gave us, that's why you get all these side effects like eczema, respiratory problems and digestion problems. Even though he also said there was no illness or death before the garden of Eden went tits up so why would god bother with a system to fight disease if none existed...

See this is where I'll attempt to step in when its not asked for- when kids are involved. No child should be scared shitless that 'god' is watching them and will punish at will. No child deserves to feel ashamed and confused because the concept of 'original sin' has been drilled into them early enough. And no child should be taught hell is a real place. Its disgusting.

I agree with errol and goody and let me make it clear, I'm very aware that not all followers of faith are like these people although funnily enough all their church friends appear to be.

Their beliefs are not worthy of respect the slightest, I don't know why they still talk us tbh.

Oh and this little gem- they don't vaccinate their son because he told us it interferes with the immune system god gave us, that's why you get all these side effects like eczema, respiratory problems and digestion problems. Even though he also said there was no illness or death before the garden of Eden went tits up so why would god bother with a system to fight disease if none existed...

See this is where I'll attempt to step in when its not asked for- when kids are involved. No child should be scared shitless that 'god' is watching them and will punish at will. No child deserves to feel ashamed and confused because the concept of 'original sin' has been drilled into them early enough. And no child should be taught hell is a real place. Its disgusting.

But if you dont teach children hell is a real place, how else will you raise good god fearing Christians. At least that's what I was brought up to believe.

I went to an outstanding Church of England School. I have to admit, I came out with a good set of grades. Albeit a lack of cultural diversity in the vanilla microsociety of a cofe school, the religious education was actually very comprehensive and had no bias. So much so that we entered the school passionate Christians, with nearly all of us leaving as ardent atheists due to the school giving us an unbiased and comprehensive education on philosophy and theology concerning God and religion.

Mmm, I disagree that debates about the existence of god(s) are futile, and that atheists ought not to be too forceful or raucous.

There are a number of countries around the world where apostasy is still punishable by death. There are many many more where announcing that you're an atheist will lead to severe repercussions.

This stuff matters. It matters that there isn't a god, and the more I can spread that message, the better. There are people alive right now who need to hear the message that they don't have to believe, and to know that they're not crazy, and not alone. It matters, it's literally life and death in some places. The whole world isn't like the Anglicans, they're not all happy to agree to differ and have another cucumber sandwich.

By debates about existence of God being futile, I mean that any evidence used to prove or disprove God cannot be proven in itself. I.e. we see non intelligent animals doing intelligent things i.e. plants photosynthesising. They must have been designed to photosynthesise. There is a designer. That designer is God. When in reality there is a massive inductive leap here. All we can see is that plants are photosynthesising and nothing else, the rest is just implications. The same with something like evil exists. God is all loving and and all powerful and all knowing. Therefore god creating cancer means god is evil or doesn't exist. Again it's just an implication. We can observe things happen in the world that we don't like (cancer) but this isn't evidence for the proof of God's non-existence.

I want people to recognise we cannot prove anything about God until we potentially die and we'll see what happens next if anything. I wish people were allowed this element of rationality in their lives like you say poochsmooch they're very much forced into religion as a way of forceful conformity within society.

Organisms not animals*