Did God Actually Command OT Brutality

[headinhands]

More to the point how do you believe in an all loving God but have such passages in the bible?

Have your opinions changed over the course of your faith?

[headinhands]

To change their ways or to live happily without sex?

Sex without children of course because it's not consensual and a child is not an equal to an adult, it's abusive. So it's right they don't have sex with children because we know that it is very very harmful to them and their families.

Two gay people having sex is so so so far away from that. Do you see that?

[headinhands]

As I said, there are likely to be reasons we don't know about.

Well if you don't know you're not being a moral agent. You're just parroting something you've been told to say. That's alarming.

[headinhands]

ver 50% of HIV/AIDS is linked to homosexuality.

There are many diseases that are transmitted by sex, straight sex, and many diseases that are transmitted by kissing, sharing towels etc. I don't think how determining how good a virus' success rate at finding a new host is the way to determine how much God doesn't like a certain activity.

[headinhands]

ver 50% of HIV/AIDS is linked to homosexuality.

Which can be dealt with via effective sexual health education, condom use etc.

[pearlylum]

I feel quite sick. So much of christian doctrine is filthy. It's a disgusting religion and I am glad I have no part of it. I cannot understand why anyone would want to associate themselves with such an organisation.

[quencher]

As for why bad things happen, well that's pretty much the question. If God is good why is their evil? For me it comes down to free will, having the ability to choose wrong as well as right. And that in Jesus, God has suffered with us. I'm not going to pretend that that is going to be a satisfactory answer to many people, and can understand why people would reject the idea of a benevolent God.
My view is if Angels can disobey in heaven it makes you question wether it's that safe. It means that the ability to sin is possible in heaven. Who knows, maybe everything has fallen apart already in heaven and every one who believes in heaven will have a massive shock.

Also, seeing that you believe in going to heaven. Where are all the souls waiting for judgement day when Jesus comes for the righteous. And are people who say that they have their loved ones in heaven are in denial seeing that Jesus is coming back for people?

God chose the ancient Israelites because He had promised Abraham that his descendants would become a great nation and occupy the land of Canaan. God keeps His promises!
See, I have a problem with this. I believe that this is the reason for the greatest divide in the world right now. Abraham/ Ibrahim as referred to by Muslims had two sons, Isaac and Ishmael. The Jews/ Judeo-Christians both believe that Isaac was the chosen son of Abraham while Muslims believe it was Ishmael. This is the cause for the war that's been raging for thousands of years. Before Jesus and and Muhammad came long. So whose promise is God keeping?

There is nowhere in the bible where God commands anyone to hate the gentiles. In fact, there are instructions to treat other nationalities living among them with respect and fairness. God instructed people “You shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt” (Exodus 22:21).
But in Genesis, God burnishes Cain in to exile as a form of punishment.

If Plato, or anyone else born before Jesus, believed in God they were saved though faith, just as we are today. The only difference is they looked to the Messiah and believed he would come, whereas we look back and believe he did come. That is all.
So what would happen to Jews who are still waiting for the messiah to come seeing that they are still considered god's chosen people? I also know that it's the reason they have the wailing wall.( Muslim and Jews still fighting over it to this day). *
*
The major difference between satan and Adam and Eve was that satan was one of the heavenly beings, and therefore much more powerful that humanity. However God granted all beings freedom of choice, whether they were heavenly, powerful beings, or mere human mortals.
This does not give a good view of what heaven will be like. Unless God will change his stance on what constitute free will and chose. *
*
As I said, there are likely to be reasons we don't know about. But from our limited knowledge, over 50% of HIV/AIDS is linked to homosexuality. There are other health problems directly related, and perhaps God decided it is not healthy physically as well as for the human race to progress? Who knows, I am only guessing here. The bible doesn't give a reason. It doesn't give a reason for not killing or lying or stealing either, but those rules we accept.
The highest number of HIV is in Africa. Followed by Asian countries. In the western world you have gay men.
Briefly, in Africa it's due to poverty, luck of education, and multiple partners, the biggest one of all is religious beliefs. Go and procreate. Lots of people don't use condom because that would hinder god's will to fill the world.

With gay men it's mostly the infected semen getting in contact with a cut. Don't worry this will end soon because over 88% of those who take a certain tablet of HIV tablet a day don't seem to get infected anymore. It is used as a preventative measure for high risk people.

The other thing also, is the fact that a lot of gay men who thought they were bound to get infected with HIV went out and purposely got infected to reduce the fear. Things like this happen when people say things the way you do without thinking of the impact it would have.

[SilverBirchWithout]

The statistic quoted about over 50% of HIV/AIDS cases being linked to homosexuality is woefully wrong.

Over 70% of diagnosed HIV sufferers are in sub-Saharan Africa, where the spread is through heterosexual transmission, poor medical protocols and mother to child.

It is estimated over 54% of HIV sufferers are not even diagnosed.

The perceived association with HIV and homosexuality as 'God's judgement' (as well as being profoundly sickening) is preventing proper treatment reaching those that need it, prevent measures in spreading the disease being as effective as they could be, causing social exclusion to sufferers. As well as fanning the flames of hatred in parts of Africa towards homosexuals.

Shame on those who believe this in any shape or form. Is it any wonder that people feel hatred towards this distorted and evil type of thinking.

[HeHasRisen]

http://www.cdc.gov/std/life-stages-populations/STDFact-MSM.htm

This source is non-religious government website which says:
"In addition to having higher rates of syphilis, more than half of all new HIV infections occur among MSM."

[BIWI]

You are spectacularly missing the point here, HeHasRisen, trying to use statistics to support your indefensible homophobia.

[HeHasRisen]

Not one single person on this forum has suggested God uses HIV as judgement. One person suggested God uses rape and war as punishment but I showed the verses about be sun shining on the righteous and unrighteous alike, and how that Jesus told christians in this world they will have troubles. It's to be expected.

[HeHasRisen]

Not homophobic at all. Just because I have explained what is written in the bible doesn't mean I treat people differently because of their sexuality. We are taught to take the log out of our own eye first. I have people in my life who I admire, who practice homosexuality. To God, homosexuals are just as valuable as you and I are to him. Equally so. Yet his still says it is classed as a sin to him, like lying, like greed, like sex before marriage, like many other things.

[headinhands]

But it worries me that you can't say why it's wrong. You're just a dog that doesn't sit on the sofa because you've been told not to. You're not using an morality. (Thanks Traci Harris)

[headinhands]

I can see why lying and greed are bad because they involve hurting other people. But gay sex and sex before marriage doesn't cause the same harm to other people. That's how I work out what's wrong. The amount of harm to others. It's so simple.

[headinhands]

And as for stds/unwanted pregnancies, robust sex education and access to the right health care sort that.

[thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts]

It is inevitable that any internet discussion about the bible ends up talking about homosexuality. Which is shame as Jesus said nothing about it and the 'texts of terror' as they are known are in the O T and in the Pauline letters which were not all written by Paul.

I don't know how some parts of the church decided it should be a first order issue but I suspect it has something to do with where you think the authority of the bible comes from. Authority in a written text comes from authorship so if you believe that the Bible was written by God then it should be taken literally. Which creates all sorts of problems as much of it is poetry or myth or OT history written at a time where the people of the promised land were struggling with why it had all gone pear shaped in the Babylonian exile.

If like me you have an approach to the Bible that says it is inspired and that some of the genres, such as the apocalyptic book of Revelation, are just hard to fathom then you are on less solid ground with regards to authority. It may look relativist and that we are cherry picking our favourite verses but that underplays the real struggle with difficult passages that goes on all of the time as preachers try and make sense of the text in today's context.

I will happily conduct same sex marriages in my church when I am allowed to do so by my bishop. I plan for my church to join the inclusive church register which will indicate to people looking for a church that we value everyone regardless of gender, race, ability etc. For some Conservative Christians this may make them decide that I am not a proper Christian but as a woman in leadership many have decided that already.

It would be so much easier if the text were directly written by God. It would make my preaching prep so much easier. But I don't believe it was or is.

[HeHasRisen]

I can see why you'd be tempted to think that, but I see it differently as you know. Even some secular psychologists / relationship counsellors are now thinking it is better to get to know someone before you jump into bed with them. There is something about sleeping with someone that creates a bond, a bond that in some cases muddies the water so the person isn't considering whether the relationship is beneficial or will work out, like they perhaps otherwise would be free to consider if they haven't complicated the decision already.

You could argue that gay sex is harmful if, by abstaining from it, there would be 50% less HIV. NOT HOMOPHOBIC COMMENT - this information has been cut & paste information from a .gov website on sexual health.

But you're also right that it is arguably equally or more damaging for people to lie, cheat or steal. What you're overlooking is that God takes a dim view of them all. I don't think for one moment God likes society picking out one sin and making people feel more guilty for that over other ones, to Him they are all bad.

Why are we dwelling on the negative? It's great to think of God who views people equally precious and of value to him, even when they are yet in their sin.

Ephesians 2: "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

[HeHasRisen]

oh that last post was for headinhands. Looks like I've hit send too late to follow you directly, headinhands!

[whatsthatcomingoverthehill]

Continuing to argue that gay sex is inherently damaging to the people involved is homophobic. At least have the decency to own your homophobia. In any case, your horrific HIV argument is fundamentally flawed if you consider gay men who only have sex with one person. And also, why the dwelling on men? Are women excluded from your bigotry?

[AmonAmarth]

Sex between two women has a much lower rate of HIV transmission than heterosexual sex. Going by your logic, all straight women should be abstinent and all conception should occur via IVF.

[SilverBirchWithout]

I just want to go back to that over half of HIV cases are because of homosexual activities statistic you quoted again.

The page you link from the CDC talks about newly diagnosed cases in the States only. Of course gay men in the US are much more likely and able to access testing. It would be also useful to know the % of heterosexual and homosexual, men and women, together with their social economic status, who put themselves forward for testing before we take that data at face value.

In the UK the rise of new cases of HIV is a greater % ( of that group as a whole) in heterosexuals than it is for homosexuals. Safe sex is still seen as an issue only for gay men. People don't fear HIV like they did before and it's perceived easy to get an antibiotic for other STDS.

Of the 35 million people living with HIV worldwide. 3.2 million are in the Americas (North, Middle and South Am.). 24.7 live in Sub-Saharan Africa. Source: WHO

Be careful how you look at statistics and interpret them to justify your views. Critical thinking and bible studies don't always mix well.

HTH

[HeHasRisen]

So let's get this clear. A quote from a gov website is homophobic? Or simply quoting that same gov website?

If they are wrong take it up with them. I'm sure they'd thank you for your expertise as I'm sure they don't want to misinform the general public.

I could understand your accusations just a tiny bit more if I were to be quoting religious sites but I am quoting secular non-biased stats in a gov report for sexual health education!

[quencher]

If God truly believed in free will and choice then someone who is gay cannot be told they are doing wrong. Reason being, that a gay person has no choice or freedom to choose whether they are gay or not. If God is the creator of everyone and everything, and knew when and what then he must have known in his creation their will be gay people. Both men and women. The fact that they have no inkling to have sex with the opposite sex is not their fault. It's biology.
So, should they refuse to have sex with a person of the same gender if they can? No they shouldn't because they didn't choose to be celibate like priest , monks or nuns. Sex has to be enjoyable and their is no point having sex if it's going to cause depression and anxiety. That in itself is painful, would God approve?

It also says in the bible that it's wrong for heterosexual couples to have sex while the woman is on her period. I don't hear Christians bashing couples for doing this. Is it because you can't tell, so it does not exist? That is a form of denial because I have seen threads on Mn that support this.

There are so many characters in the bible who have had extra marital affairs I've King David and Abraham. With Abraham God accepted his illegitimate son until Sarah sent ishmael and his mother packing.

You are talking about people having sex with too many partners, what you say about King Solomon who even gave a blow job to the person he writes about in songs of songs. Blow jobs do not lead to procreation. That would be a problem.
Plus, he slept with over a 700- 1000 women. He boost about it doesn't he? The master of all lads. Hooray! The weren't all concubines.

[quencher]

In the uk the highest rise of HIV is among over 50s heterosexual couples. I saw this being talked about this year in the news.

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

I don’t really want to comment on conservative Christian views on homosexuality – the whole subject area just makes me really sad!

But I have enjoyed the dialectic between the opposing views on the nature of Christianity - evolving and culturally-relative versus God-given and unchanging. There are clearly posters on MN who have read widely in this area and I’d like to thank them for taking the time to share their knowledge.

The main point I would like to add to the discussion is that Jesus only looks gentle, and therefore out of step with the general Gotterdammerung of the OT, if considered from the perspective of a believer. For a non-believer, the NT contains many echoes of OT-style wrath.

I feel I cannot fully delight in the good and wholesome precepts of Jesus because of his – to my mind unfair - harsh condemnation of non-believers.

To help Christians understand this, compare:

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

from Revelations in the Bible

with

Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.

from Surah Al-Bayyina in the Qur’an.

These passages sadden me. A lack of belief is not a moral failing.

Christians believe what they do sincerely and without malice. If they have made a theological mistake in not accepting the Qu’ran’s message, they should not be punished for it. Ditto for Jews, and other non-Muslims.

In the same way, those who don’t accept the Christian message should not be punished. They are not willfully spurning the message – they just don’t have enough information to know it’s the truth.

Maybe Christians and Muslims in the modern world don’t endorse these texts, but it would be helpful, and foster a feeling of fellowship across religious divides, to add an annotation to the holy books making it clear this is the case.

I would like to enjoy being enlightened without feeling simultaneously condemned.

(Not sure if that was a derailment or a re-railment but just wanted to get it off my chest!)

[SilverBirchWithout]

OK let's make this simple.

36 million worldwide

1.2 million in the US

50,000 new cases a year in the US each year

27,000 MSM cases each year

Take a look at this page from your own source, ethnicity is the highest attributing factor:

www.cdc.gov/hiv/statistics/overview/ataglance.html

And, as someone pointed out earlier, lesbians do not feature at all in the stats.