Did God Actually Command OT Brutality

[headinhands]

More to the point how do you believe in an all loving God but have such passages in the bible?

Have your opinions changed over the course of your faith?

[BIWI]

In the same way, those who don’t accept the Christian message should not be punished. They are not willfully spurning the message – they just don’t have enough information to know it’s the truth.

Really?!

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

Could you explain why you don't like that BIWI? I'm an atheist and I don't feel I'm turning away from something that is obvious. I just don't 'get' faith.

[pearlylum]

"willfully spurning the message"

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

Pearlylum I seem to have confused you too - and I'm not sure why!

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

I'm just trying to say that if it is not absolutely obvious that Christianity - or Islam - is the truth, then being a disbeliever can't be worthy of eternal damnation. And I don't personally think any of the religions of this world are the 'truth'!

[quencher]

The only way HIV can be dealt with properly is if stigmatisation of the disease stops. It's not just affecting one group. People are ashamed of talking about it or seeking proper help. HIV awareness in the UK is very poor. It's that disease you won't get sympathy for but only judgement. He without sin may cast the first stone because other sexual diseases exist too. How is it different? How is different to syphilis or gonorrhoea?

Secondly, how HIV entered the human chain is debatable too. It might not have been a natural processes as you think. Or do you think that God works through the humans to create HIV.

[BIWI]

I'm not spurning the message, and I don't need any more information to know that God doesn't exist. Whichever religion we're talking about. That's what I mean!

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

BIWI, I don't feel I'm spurning the message either, but some Christians feel that there must be a seed of faith there in atheists but they are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge it. Sorry if I was unclear earlier.

[DN4GeekinDerby]

I find the Satan being viewed as a cast out angel in Christianity confusing when in Job Satan is clearly walking with God in heaven, making bets and talking about the piousness - or lack there of - of humans. How can God be having such a chat with someone he's cast out and why would Satan make a bet or hold to the rules if he's God's enemy? The whole book makes no sense with the cast out angels thing.

In Judaism, the one being cast down is simply who it is in the text, Nebuchadnezzar and Satan is simply an accusing/prosecuting angel [with the belief that we create accusers who will speak against us through our sins and angels to speak for us with our good deeds and they both weigh on us] and there is no eternal hellfire for the majority of humanity, just the World to Come which most will enter but those closer to God will enjoy more - if there is anything at all.

Honestly, having been in right wing Christianity and Orthodox Judaism for many years but having come out of it and no longer having a dog in this race, if you want to go for brutality, I'd still say the Christian version of Elohim is far more brutal - as I said, by their standards rules of humanity will die and spend eternity in fire and brimstone being tortured, requires several years of destroying the world and breaking humanity to reform it into paradise which won't even last [nothing like this in Judaism, in Judaism, the belief is that there are multiple potential very human Messiahs in each generation now and things will come to pass either when we've prepared the world or in our greatest hour of need and will continue]. Torah God may have been more ruthless to enemies while on Earth [and the keeping virgins things wasn't any kindness - if the brides to be didn't accept or still pinned for their loved ones after that month, they could be killed. For many it was likely just delaying the inevitable or spending the rest of their lives with that weighing on them] which resembles a lot of the Bronze Age deities ruthlessness but at least they had peace for the rest of eternity and at least most of humanity throughout time wasn't instantly going to hellfire for being born in the wrong place to hear about it. Most Torah sacrifices didn't even involve blood at all.

I often wonder if a lot of confusion in Christianity comes from the Torah not being a total text - it was designed to be read alongside with the oral tradition [which is why the phrase ''as you've been taught' or similar shows up so much often without any other guidelines, the traditions for things like kosher slaughter and such were in the oral tradition] which was later written down due to Rome and later burnt a lot due to the early Roman Church viewing it [and the earlier Christian writings from Egypt and eastern Africa] as heresy. Kinda hard to understand something if you only have less than half of it [the oral tradition, now written, is far larger] or when things kept being retranslated to fit changes [the early Roman Christian church did that a lot - thankfully most Christian Bibles these days have fixed most of oddities].

[SilverBirchWithout]

Secondly, how HIV entered the human chain is debatable too. It might not have been a natural processes as you think. Or do you think that God works through the humans to create HIV

This is whole new area for discussion and probably a bit too diverting for this thread. Recent thinking is that the origins of virus can be traced to Europe and the U.S. And it may have been colonialism, trade and poorly executed vaccination programs that spread the epidemic. These concerns are creating all sorts of problems for outside agencies trying to gain trust in order to help African nations tackle the problems.

I'll get off my soapbox now

[quencher]

Silver I could go into all sorts too. Wrong thread though. I wonder what god's stand is on the vivisection lap in the Congo that got shutdown in the seventies? HIV /Ebola ring a bell

[springydaffs]

I've not been able to get my head around 'God hates sin because he is pure' tbh. The way I see it is that God hates sin because it harms the sinner. Just as we are upset when our kids do stupid things that harm them. Because we love them and want the best for them, don't want them to be harmed - especially at their own hand!

So God hates sin but loves the sinner - and knows how harmful the sin is. Eg if I hate, it is bad for me and can have far-reaching consequences on not just my emotional and psychological health but could also bleed into my physical health, as often happens.

God, all-knowing, all-loving, knows the end result of things. We know about gravity and we respect it/don't mess with it; God knows the end result of what he calls sins. So he says 'don't do it [because I know the end result]!' We can get so caught up in those emotions - often understandably - but they are so harmful to us is the bottom line, I think.

Obvs this is not new to contemporary thinking eg 'hating is like holding molten coals to your chest - you're the one who's going to get burnt' is a general maxim people recognise and understand these days.

Not to mention the impact of eg hate on the collective. God loves the world so he's not only looking out for the individual but the collective. And balancing that all up.

[springydaffs]

Didn't answer thread title though! Just wanted to address that point about God hating sin.

[springydaffs]

Didn't answer thread title though! Just wanted to address that point about God hating sin.

[springydaffs]

Patience is a virtue

[springydaffs]

And God paid an incredibly high price for those he loves, so it's not a general benign little love when he's upset when we do things that harm us. He really loves us.

[pearlylum]

"God loves the world so he's not only looking out for the individual but the collective"
If that's the case then why does he set conditions on those getting to heaven?

Good people living altruistic lives but athiest can burn in hell.