Did God Actually Command OT Brutality

[headinhands]

More to the point how do you believe in an all loving God but have such passages in the bible?

Have your opinions changed over the course of your faith?

[VertigoNun]

Job had had life restored in the end.

[HeHasRisen]

I assume your reference to smashing babies on the rocks is found in Psalms? This is not God commanding anyone to smash babies, it is the psalmist expressing his curse against Babylon. The context of this is Babylonians being described as captors and tormentors, and the hope of them receiving a taste of their own medicine. Torment is a strong word: the dictionary describes it as "to afflict with great bodily or mental suffering; pain."

With regard to the Israelites killing everyone but virgins, if I am not much mistaken you are referring to the story of Moses in Exodus 34. Again, the background to this, for context, is that God said “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same."

This was also on the back of a terrible plague, due to the fact that the Israelites had turned from God and began to get embroiled with false gods and their worship practices. This left the Israelites wide open to the same plague, presumably though STI's, so the only way to be sure of putting an end to the plague was to remove anyone who had prostituted themselves, hence saving only the virgins.

This was not to do with treating different people in a different way because of their skin colour, as far as I am aware they were all the same skin colour. The difference was that they were rebelling against God and committing untold atrocities. The verse I have quoted above said that they were prostituting themselves and sacrificing. Who do you suppose they were sacrificing? Their children of course. And that's ok with you? I doubt it! There is only a certain amount of time that God will put up with people's wickedness. He gives chance after chance, but then says enough, no more!

[quencher]

Job had had life restored in the end.
After God had tested him and proved his point.

[Fyaral]

Much of the OT is very telling of the cultural values of purity. That is why all including children and animals must die in heathen cities. That is why you can only take virgin women then remove the trappings of thier impurity.

Most of Leviticus is rules to maintain ritual purity including how to recognise different diseases. If you assign a divine command to a social rule or norm people are more likely to comply.

The books of the OT were written over thousands of years by many different authors for different purposes.

Even if you believe in God you have to appreciate the bias and motives of people writing literature about him. For example compare Genesis to the book of Jubilees which is apocraphal. Very similar stories but written by different authors and you can clearly see a different subtext and bias in the writing.

[Redbindippers101]

This is the all knowing, all loving god, who created us in his own image, knew how how we would behave, and then thinks torturing us forever is a good idea. What a c*nt.

[Fyaral]

HeHadRisen what about 1 Samuel 15?

The Lord had me choose you to be king of his people, Israel. Now listen to this message from the Lord: 2 “When the Israelites were on their way out of Egypt, the nation of Amalek attacked them. I am the Lord All-Powerful, and now I am going to make Amalek pay!

3 “Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Don’t have any pity. Kill their men, women, children, and even their babies. Slaughter their cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys.”


Saul does what he is told except for some of the best animals to sacrifice. God/Samuel is so angry that Saul is told he will be king no more and this later comes true.

It makes sense if you consider the need for ritual/tribal purity but not in any othet way.

[HeHasRisen]

Deuteronomy 21 gives permission to take women home as a wife. It gives clear instructions of how to do so, kindly, and includes the ceremonious cleansing. If you go further back you will read that the Israelites went through the same cleansing of shaving hair, washing and changing clothes. It was symbolic. Every ritual in the OT was symbolic.

These were days of arranged marriages but even then, they're given a let-out. If they don't get on they are released. And even THAT comes with strict rules in favour of the woman. She can't be sold or mistreated in any way, but has to be allowed to go free completely.

Being a single female in those days would have been much more of a challenge than today. In fact, I would argue that it is more of a challenge to NOT be single now! However, their culture was such that women were protected and provided for in a way that seems quite alien to our western world. Perhaps some women would prefer to walk straight into the protection and provision of a new home?

[Fyaral]

The thing with prostitutes is interesting as well. For most of history YHWH was one God among many with his own cult. He was usually considered a storm or fertility god (hence the special hate for Baal who served the same purpose and was a rival). YHWH had a wife called Asherah who often had high ranking priestesses/prostitues at her temples.

Later on some of the YHWH cult rejected the rest of the pantheon and claimed YHWH was the only God not just the best. This concept was very unfamiliar to the people at the time which is why so many Bible passages are so ruthless in denouncing other gods and punishing any that stray. This includes the demonisation of the temple prostitues and the burning of the Asherah poles.

[Fyaral]

Deut 16:21-22

21Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole beside the altar you build to the Lord your God, 22and do not erect a sacred stone, for these the Lord your God hates.

[Fyaral]

There are still remnants of the idea of the divine pantheon left in the Bible for example Job 1

6 One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the Lord, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil.” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have you not put a fence around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, all that he has is in your power; only do not stretch out your hand against him!” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

The heavenly beings are nowadays interpreted as God's angels but the Hebrew more likely refers to other divine entities in their own right. Satan is not the devil but in this capacity means 'accuser'. Like a prosecuter for a case or someone playing devils advocate. There are no other hints as to the identity of this being.

[HeHasRisen]

1 Samuel 15 is one of those classic situations where we simply don't know what God is thinking, but I trust He is just - His thoughts are higher than my thoughts and it is not surprising that we can't comprehend every single detail about God. Nor can we see the future like He can. We do not know what the Amalekites could have/would have done had they not been judged like this. They were completely wiped out, life was removed from them. Several hundred years later we see in the book of Esther that a lone Amalekite attempted to wipe out all the Jews. They were a race of people with no regard to God or His ways, and God judged them accordingly. Sometimes He judges in this life; sometimes the next. But you can be sure we will all be judged, which is what makes the Easter message so incredible. That a God so mighty would make a way for every person to be made safe and well for eternity, when they don't deserve it, is quite a free gift.

[HeHasRisen]

Fyaral, your post about God being a cult and historically being many gods is not from the bible, I have no idea where you got that idea from.

Also, we know from the bible that satan IS the devil, the same in one, and was created as the highest angel, but wanted more than that. Since then he's tried to usurp God's reign on earth and in heaven. In the same way that God is described in many ways (Counsellor, prince of peace, etc) satan is also described as the accuser, the devil, etc. Different names doesn't mean different beings.

[Fyaral]

If that is the case then that suggests that some people are racially evil otherwise the babies could have been spared and raised with no knowledge of their people.

It fits with the idea of tribal purity which was crucial historically and currently for Judaism. The book of Jubilees offers an explanation for this. Some angels walked the earth and had relations with women who birthed the giants or nephilim. These were all evil and as their descendents spead so did sin. Noah was saved from the flood to start again as his family bloodline was uniquely pure.

[Fyaral]

The idea of many gods certainly is in the Bible otherwise there would not be so many rules about not following them. My knowledge comes from extensive research including other texts of the time. Cult is not a bad word in this context. It is used by biblical scholars to describe the religion of a particular god. YHWH had a cult as did most other gods of the time. The difference is that YHWHs cult at some point became monotheistic and all the texts included in the Bible reflect this viewpoint.

[HeHasRisen]

Redbindippers, you said that "This is the all knowing, all loving god, who created us in his own image, knew how how we would behave, and then thinks torturing us forever is a good idea." is not completely accurate.

God doesn't think its a good idea to torture people forever. The bible says that His will is for all men to be saved. It's your choice!

It's a bit like saying the builder of a multi-storey car park is sick in the head because they obviously intended for people to jump off the roof to try and commit suicide, because that sometimes happens.

God made a perfect world and sin changed it. God has to judge sin because He is holy. If he didn't judge sin then he would be condoning it, and therefore not holy. But even then, God made a way out for us, if we should choose to take it.

I can really understand people rejecting false religions. God tells us to! But there is an inbuilt knowledge in us that God exists and the evidence is there if we would open ourselves to it. God says if you seek me you shall find me, knock and the door will open. If you honestly are open to God then He will know this and reveal more of himself to you. The problem is when people mix up openness to God with openness to religion, which is not the same thing.

In the bible God says to gain wisdom consider the ant. There is a less-known fact about ants that is really interesting. Ever heard of the ants circle of death? It is that the army ants who blindly follow each other, sending everyone off on a huge expedition, circle after circle of going nowhere. Each ant follows blindly and gradually they die one by one of heat, exhaustion and hunger! The point is be careful who you follow. Be sure where the path goes. Being a good follower is not enough.

[Fyaral]

Wrt Satan. The word Satan literally means accuser in Hebrew. Christians connect this figure with the one described in Isiah 14:12 as a fallen figure. They also connect him to the serpent in Genesis. These figures were not really connected in the OT or by the authors/believers of the day.

The NT is different and I assume this is what you are referring to when you mention his usurption ambitions. I know less about the NT but it is a very different kettle of fish. Written at different times by different writers with a different purpose. Revelation is just weird and there are all kinds of interpretations that can be put on the writing of it.

[anotherbusymum14]

I used to think God was brutal like you say (as seen in the OT) but the more I've read the bible the more I've seen all God has continually done for His people.
He did so much, He provided for them, He rescued them, He restored them, and He gave them opportunities to repent (that's all they had to do) to have their relationship out right with God. On occasion God even went over and above, and although He chose wanted to destroy a city/people, He chose not to, because one person "challenged" God about it.
God is all powerful and He states that we should put Him first, above all else and all else that we need will follow (not saying everything in life is to be perfect but way more bearable because of what we know of God and ourselves with Him).
However like with Adam and Eve, who made their own choices, we often choose to be away from God and independent of God. And in doing this we leave ourselves vulnerable to the wrath of God (if He chooses to put things right) and also open to all things evil (or not protected by God). So although it seems harsh and complicated (as I always thought it was) it's a lot more simple.
And we have an incredibly loving God which you probably see more of in the NT because God sent His son, Jesus, to ultimately reconnect us all back to Him if we so choose. So yeah that's my thoughts and I know some will disagree with this or not like my response. But the OP posed the question.

[JassyRadlett]

Fyaral, your post about God being a cult and historically being many gods is not from the bible, I have no idea where you got that idea from.

There is a lot of historical evidence about the development of religions, including early Judaism, apart from the bible. There's one school of thought that suggests that Judaism began as a henotheistic religion, only later denying the existence of other gods and positing a monotheistic deity, perhaps as a political and social benefit/need after the fall of Judah.

[HeHasRisen]

Noah wasn't pure in the sense that God is pure. In fact, when he got off the ark he got drunk celebrating and decided to go naked, I think we can all agree this would't usually be considered the actions of someone we would think of as pure!

However He had followed God and obeyed him. His faith was credited to him as righteousness.

With regard to raising the babies, I am not sure who would do that, other than the Israelites. Also there is a big nature/nurture debate in this I think. If you are one who thinks nature has more bearing, then inheritance has to come into that, and if you are the child of an evil generation perhaps your nature will follow suit? Who knows? I don't have that answer. But I do know some of my personality traits (both good and bad) can be traced back through my blood line and I see the likeness of myself in my own children, so there is some truth in the nature/nurture debate.

Again, it comes down to God being all knowing and not us!

[anotherbusymum14]

I also don't think we can take one part of the bible and hold it up and say "this is God". There is more to it like culture and context and yes asking God to reveal and open up the scripture to you.
Also, to the poster who says YHWH had a wife, he never had a wife but if you want to think that then go for it.

[Fyaral]

I guess what I'm trying to argue is that what we read in the OT is the propaganda and religious/political polemics of thousands of years ago.

The NT is probably more relevent as Jesus said a lot that can be applied across the ages. You still have to be careful though. Paul's letters were written as specific instructions to individual churches in context of the time yet people still hold to them absolutely.

I think believe what you want about God but don't try to make the Bible make sense as a cohesive whole as it doesn't.

[HeHasRisen]

Satan and the devil = the same being. Evidenced by:
Matthew 4:5; Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

Fyaral, your post first sounded like you were trying to say the God of the bible describes many gods as being an option, which of course consistently the bible says the opposite. But your second post makes it sound like you were in fact not saying this, so I think I misunderstood your words.

JassyRidlett, I personally wouldn't choose to follow the "one school of thought" you describe, when it contracts the entire bible, which is consistent in that there is only one God and not the option to follow after any false god that you fancy.

[HeHasRisen]

Any belief that the bible isn't cohesive is a complete misunderstanding, because it is an entirely cohesive whole. I wonder what makes you say that? It fits perfectly together, the old testament within the old, the new testament within the new, and the old testament within the new testament and vice versa. It is a book that would be impossible for so many different writers to manage to be so cohesive, which is part of what amens it such an incredible book. But that shouldn't really be surprising since it is the inspired word of God.

[Fyaral]

Asherah was the consort of El who was the supreme god of Canaan. El is often associated with YHWH who is also known as Elohim, a plural form that can also mean all gods implying that the YHWH cult had moved from monolateralism to full monotheism where YHWH embodied all aspects of the heavenly pantheon in himself.

Remember these people were far flung and the high religion of the temple priests may have been quite different to that practised by most people. People would have turned to different gods for various matters and the cults would have morphed and changed over time. The same god would be worshipped quite differently in different places.

Remember this is all historical. YHWH once having believed to have had a wife is no threat to your own faith. Christianity now is different to even 500 years ago. Religion changes. Is this a surprise to anyone?