Did God Actually Command OT Brutality

[headinhands]

More to the point how do you believe in an all loving God but have such passages in the bible?

Have your opinions changed over the course of your faith?

[quencher]

Excellent! I learnt more from this thread than I thought I was going to.

[headinhands]

Here's your first post on this thread: Your thread poses many questions for clarification. Firstly, by brutality, I assume you mean death?
^
In answer to your corresponding question, there is a misconception about God. Whilst He is all-loving, in the sense that He loves all people with no discrimination, He is also righteous and with that, comes judgement.

Think about it for a minute. We are made in the image of God, so you will know this is true because you will experience something similar in your own heart. Whatever quality of goodness is in you will automatically be repelled by some of the worst evil you see around you in the modern day. Evil such as schoolgirls like the Chibok girls, being kidnapped and raped, one reportedly to the point of being able to only walk on all fours, or evil such as domestic violence, child neglect, paedophilia. God is just the same, except the only difference is that some things we normalise and accept are not normal or acceptable to God.^

So am I right in thinking you don't agree with the death penalty for adultery?

[headinhands]

Exodus 21 v 21-22
If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.* 211"If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

[headinhands]

here was no income support supplied by the government, and no way to house and feed people who could not do this for themselves.

So if the government announced they were going to do away with the welfare system and allow people to own slaves, using the OT model, that would be okay? Would it be superior to what we have now? Why is humanity moving away from slavery? If we have developed better, more moral ways of coping with poverty what couldn't God have set up a system like welfare that didn't involve owning people and being allowed to physically beat them?

[SpidersFromMars]

I don't believe the verbatim quotes from God were actually God himself. I think it was the culture at the time, individual people speaking "for" God.

I don't believe He would sanction the kind of brutal punishments His people inflict in His name.

[JassyRadlett]

^Is it an opportunity just to post all ones "knowledge" on history and/or vent arguments against the Christian faith?
It sure sounds like it from certain poster/s (singular).^

That aimed at me? It's a bit more polite to address people directly if you've a problem with what they'd said, rather than making disingenuous speculation about their motives to the wider room.

At any rate - my answer that it was in response to a poster claiming that the internal consistency of the Bible should be accepted as proof of the existence of the Christian god. I pointed out that there are good historical reasons for that consistency, particularly if one is using the Protestant Bible.

I also made it clear that I had no problem with the poster believing what she wanted to believe, but that she shouldn't expect others to accept it as fact based on a spurious argument.

[headinhands]

Rules in favour of the slave.

How about God just outlawed slavery and set up a more moral system?

[headinhands]

This then impacts on human relationships, such as work colleagues, family, or in this case, slavery.

God makes it clear, Whether slave or free, he views them the same. Completely equal.

So you're not interested in eradicating world slavery? You'd just want to make sure slave owners are good Christians?

[headinhands]

I don't believe the verbatim quotes from God were actually God himself. I think it was the culture at the time, individual people speaking "for" God.

I don't believe He would sanction the kind of brutal punishments His people inflict in His name.

Why would God be happy for these actions to be attributed to him? Being so wise would he not see that it calls into question the reliability of the whole bible seeing how such horrendous cruelty was allowed to stand as very much wanted by God? Would you allow someone to produce a biography that falsely portrayed you drowning babies? Would you not be up in arms?

[headinhands]

Why didn't Jesus say 'that OT stuff, that wasn't me btw, I would never ask people to do that'. Instead he quoted from it all over the place like he thought it was the bees knees.

[quencher]

What I would like to know is, if heaven is meant to be a place of bliss and ultimate perfection with no evil, why was lucifer, satan, the devil, managed to deviate from God. When he was thrown out heaven, he brought down with him his followers who disobeyed God too. I do know that lucifer being in the world is given for the reason why evil exist. The fact that you have battle between heaven and earth. I have always had people talk about it in the spiritual sense. The side effects are evil atrocities in the world.

Why didn't God create another world to send him to?
If what I have asked are true does it mean that God does not care that much about the humans and living things he is meant to have created with love? How can he allow such evil to exist to torment earthlings? Why earthlings ?

An all powerful God would have had the power to eliminate evil both from lucifer and everything else.

An all knowing God would have avoided the whole process unless we are or were his experiment that has gone wrong. we are like viruses he can't seem to control or exterminate. Which is why he kept on sending prophets, and in the end Jesus like an antivirus which is meant to change the programme.

[anotherbusymum14]

Hadn't seen your post Jassy, and wasn't meaning to offend. I am all for differences of opinions and people seeing different things but personally just felt a poster had gone OTT on some of the posts that probably didn't really add to the discussion. Mostly great posts here tho.
Just to add to some of what you are talking about,I think it's natural to get caught up in the many OT systems and rules that really only applied and belong in OT times.
The cross and resurrection of Jesus changed all of that so we don't have to get too caught up in the law although we naturally do.
Second, the craziness in the world the abuse, and the devastation we often see also disorts our view of God. So it can be hard to see God as loving, but I think He gives us the Holy Spirit (like in Acts) which allows us further access to God. The Holy Spirit helps us to see God - not through the lens of the world and as we see things around us - but intimately as our creator designed us to.

[headinhands]

caught up in the many OT systems and rules that really only applied and belong in OT times.

But they were systems and rules put in place by God. Just after the 10 commandments a man was seen collecting stick on the sabbath and God ordered him to be put to death. If God is unchanging and the same today as yesterday I find it difficult to understand being able to believe in a loving, merciful God.

We might say, 'well life was different then' but Christians believe that God doesn't change. So you still have the reality where God would stand by that action now. He is unable to say 'it was right then but wrong now' because then that means his unchanging and you have the dilemma of being able to say 'God behaved immorally'.

[Fyaral]

If you want to criticise my posts busymum just do it. Dont be PA about it.

With regards to the rules on slavery basically what another poster said about the OT being a description of the rules of the time and I would not see it as relevent to us today.

The sexual rules are interesting and again can be viewed in context. The OT rules all boil down to ensuring the continuation of the Jewish race. Thus the story of Onan being punished for spilling his semen on the ground. The rules are designed to ensure as many healthy, legitimate children as possible are born.

In the NT the early Christians believed the second coming was going to be really soon so continuing the race was unimportant. You can see this in Paul where he states marriage is ok if otherwise the person would be tempted into the sin of fornication but otherwise chastity is to be aspired to.

[headinhands]

The cross and resurrection of Jesus changed all of that

So you're saying that God had to be brutal until Jesus came. (Not sure why?) Why didn't he send Jesus right off the bat?

[Fyaral]

Do you believe you cannot be moral without being Christian HeHasRisen?

I consider myself a good person and have cobbled together my moral code from a variety of sources. Some from Jesus e.g. love thy neighbor, some from Buddhism e.g. right livelihood, some from my society like no slavery, some from my family like no guns, some from philosophers I respect like feminism. I also follow a loose consequentialist model of doing things likely to help and avoid suffering of others.

Not that I believe in heaven but if it did, presumably I would not be allowed in. I have done bad things but I think overall I have helped more than I have harmed.

What about those who have never heard of Jesus? People born in remote jungle. Are they doomed to hell?

What do you think about heaven and hell?

[headinhands]

The Holy Spirit helps us to see God - not through the lens of the world and as we see things around us - but intimately as our creator designed us to.

Well, the Holy Spirit, that's another thing. . Why can't the HS tell all the people he/it is inside the same stuff. Like, why does he tell Pete that God doesn't like homosexuality but tells Mary that he hasn't got a problem?

[headinhands]

And why does he tell more people he's okay with it now then he did 30 years ago?

[headinhands]

How can I argue the toss against someone with such high power and knowledge when I have much less human power and knowledge?

But that being assumed your pathetic human brain would be up to the job of distinguishing the right God out if the other 2'999 on offer.

You say you are stupid compared to god but he designed a system where your eternal fate relied on your deeply inferior and flawed brain??

[quencher]

Well, the Holy Spirit, that's another thing.

Isn't the Holy Spirit meant to be your inner psyche or reason? The thing that makes you think.

Someone once described it as the equivalence to the mind the place that is believe to hold reason.
God is the soul or part of the soul.
Jesus is the body, God incarnated in human form.
And the spirit is the mind. The thing that tells you what is right and wrong.

So it would make sense to a Christian to say that the holy spirit guided them to take action. Your inner voice.

A corrupted mind will do things that is not in accordance with what is right.

[quencher]

Well, the Holy Spirit, that's another thing. Why can't the HS tell all the people he/it is inside the same stuff. Like, why does he tell Pete that God doesn't like homosexuality but tells Mary that he hasn't got a problem?

Isn't this all down to how people interpret the bible? I thought it would be. Also, how you interpret the bible would matter depending on your environment, and how you have been brought up.

Probably the reason for changes in attitudes now is that there is a lot more awareness and growth with the human intellect that we understand things better. Are we cleverer now than were 100s of years ago. Hell yeah.
Part of evolution. Our thirst for greatness and knowledge has probably led us to this stage of our society.

In Genesis Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge and evil. My philosophy teacher once said that it was not a real fruit they ate but instead had sex. That is why they were told as punishment they would be able to reproduce and bear children. Use knowledge to take care of their offsprings and other animals /plants.

The first knowledge, or the experience of being knowledgeable for Adam and Eve was when they realised they were naked. From that day onwards they had to experience and learn things. If they had eaten the tree of life. No one would be able to die but probably have a different consequence.

[quencher]

New fossil discovery suggests unicorns might be real. Well we might have to stop using unicorns and ferries in the same sentence as something that does not exist.

www.buzzfeed.com/mbvd/the-last-unicorn?bftw&utm_term=.du4EVQDQv#.ytbK86e62

[LilaTheTiger]

I'd be super interested in a scientific translation of the Bible. Done by atheists probably, to avoid nuances of a translators faith and accompanied by notes that explain the complex passages by an atheist historian (team of historians probably) that put it in the context of the times.

Does such a thing exist?

[headinhands]

The first knowledge, or the experience of being knowledgeable for Adam and Eve was when they realised they were naked.

I remember having this discussion before. Some cultures spend their lives naked. How would the creation narrative be received there? It's culturally/climate specific. For example it wouldn't work with Eskimos either because I assume they'd be like 'how did they not die before clothes?'

[quencher]

I remember having this discussion before. Some cultures spend their lives naked. How would the creation narrative be received there? It's culturally/climate specific. For example it wouldn't work with Eskimos either because I assume they'd be like 'how did they not die before clothes?'

By observing different cultures we tend to find that they have little things that either cover the labia or penis. I think an anthropologist would say that they are always a were of their private parts. Am referring to some tribes in the middle of the Amazon or with tribe in the kalahari desert etc.

Adam and eve used leaves to cover their privates parts.

With people living in the amazons forest, I have seen the men completely naked and they don't seem to care but the women are always covered.