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Philosophy/religion

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Did God Actually Command OT Brutality

242 replies

headinhands · 28/03/2016 13:44

More to the point how do you believe in an all loving God but have such passages in the bible?

Have your opinions changed over the course of your faith?

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quencher · 29/03/2016 22:43

Jesus talks of hell as being a fire. In Mark 9:43 Jesus describes hell as "go into hell, where the fire never goes out" and in Matthew 23:33 as of a place of condemnation "“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" and of a place where satan and his angels will be condemned. "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;" (2 Peter 2:4).

This place is actually not known. Jesus describes it but it can easily be on planet earth. Seeing that they didn't know the universe existed.,

Unless you were to use the seven pillars to try and understand other places or universes that exist outside of our realm or in another dimension.

JassyRadlett · 29/03/2016 22:48

I think it's wonderful that parents love their children but hate the bad behaviour too

Really? I don't have much of a sense of wonder about it, it's common sense. I think it's a biological imperative, and therefore human nature.

Before the accusations start, I feel a great sense of wonder about a great many things. Smile Just not about how parents can love their kids but dislike it when they misbehave.

quencher · 29/03/2016 22:51

Not forever. The day of judgement is coming for all, satan and his dark angels included. There will be a day when satan is powerless, bound forever. But that day will also mean the end of the world as we know it, ash as I said it is only by God's mercy and continued Grace (towards man) that it hasn't happened yet.

This does not answer ops question. We are back to square one. That fact is evil exist or lack of good depending on how you define evil. The omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and most of all, all loving god allows evil to exist. Gives you free will but he already knows what your going to do.

It's not like he didn't know you before you were born, the fact of the bible, he did know you. So in this case humans are not that free are they ?

quencher · 29/03/2016 22:59

The bible fits perfectly and is coherent, accurate, and consistent. It is more reliable than man's word! Why don't you set yourself some time and investigate the prophesies that the bible has got 100% right. It is truly amazing.

Been there done that. What I would like to know is why did he choose to give to one group of people. Seeing that other races appear in the bible to. Sheba being Ethiopian and the woman King David sleeps with was of a darker race.
Did God favour one blood line?

Am sorry but he does not come across as very loving towards everyone else. I know it was mentioned before that the creatures slept with humans and made others impure. Tome that is how racism can be stated. Hatred for other or the Gentiles.

quencher · 29/03/2016 23:16

I disagree, with respect. Test me and see if thats true!
I can't. Firstly, I don't know what your day today life is. I have know idea what your thought processes is.

You are asking me to read the heart and mind of man, which I don't have the power to do. That is between each person and God. He knows the genuine response, I do not.
No am not asking you to read the mind of a dead man. Plato knew that there was more to us than just the body. He believed that our aim in life was to gain perfection and in this world it was not possible because of the body. He knew that the body was not perfect and the only place that had perfection was the world of the forms. A place that exist without evil or bad. One of the examples he gives of perfect things is how you would draw a circle or what constitutes something that's beautiful. In the world of the forms the things are created by a deity. Who is Demi-God. The part of you that could reach the forms is your soul while the body decays and rejoins the soil/earth.

The concept is not different to Jesus telling his followers their is heaven where every thing is perfect and holy with no evil. It's the place where you have to be when you die. You have to follow certain rules to attain it.

The reason why I have written all of this is to answer to this.
Romans addresses this really well. It speaks of how the knowledge of God is input to every man’s consciousness, and that there are signs all around us. Signs of God and of His invisible power and attributes. God says if you seek you shall find, and says that He gives more knowledge to those who are open to him. So a bushman out in a remote jungle, has an inbuilt sense of not being alone, and when he looks into the sky or the plants that grow, he has a sense of wonder about it all. He has an inbuilt conscience about right and wrong. God can come to anyone and speak to them, and watch their reaction. They are definitely not doomed to hell unless they harden and refuse to believe.

Plato new of a higher being but was born before Jesus. What happens to him?

quencher · 29/03/2016 23:29

Jassy I understand your comparison of God with parents. With all of this as the creator and someone with no equivalence to humans still created evil or left a vacuum where evil has space or place for existence.
A loving parent would not burn their child because they have disobeyed. Even the prodigal son was forgiven and welcomed with open arms. ( I understand what the parable is for).
Jesus saved us but evil was not eliminated.

By the way, if the world is already perfect and Jesus has done the saving then why would God want to destroy the world. Why build it in the first place if he already knew he was going to destroy it?

quencher · 29/03/2016 23:35

*Daniel affirmed that his “spirit” was “grieved” within his body (Dan. 7:15

The prophet Ezekiel declared that the “soul” (i.e., the person) who sins will surely die (Ezek. 18:20)

Soul and spirit are considered to be synonymous.*

So what would be your understanding of the mind or memory.

I think it's wonderful that parents love their children but hate the bad behaviour too! Punishment within reason.
Rape, war, drought is not within reason because it's out of individual hands. A woman who gets rape is not because she disobeyed. A child killed in war has no nothing todo with the war.
Lack of rain can be our fault now but I don't think it was in the Old Testament even though it was given as punishment.

JassyRadlett · 29/03/2016 23:58

Quencher, yep, that's where the analogy falls down. But I think there are still parallels between changes in what is societally acceptable in terms of parenting, bringing changes in how the Christian god is interpreted - a century ago, it was not considered unloving to punish a child physically - often quite the opposite. It was perfectly acceptable to cast out a child who was homosexual or otherwise socially undesirable according to the morals of the day. Some of that wouldn't be considered the acts of a good, loving parenting now, and so the interpretation of the deity has had to change to reconcile with the idea that the deity is a good and loving parent figure.

fakenamefornow · 30/03/2016 09:42

Confirmed atheist here, loving this thread, thank you for starting op I've started reading the Bible on the back of it although I have been meaning to read it for years. Great to have the Christian understanding and interpretation from hehas and the historical context and evolution (of the writings and beliefs) from Fyaral that's what I always found missing and really needed. Many of the posters seem so knowledgeable so it's great for me to follow. Smile

BIWI · 30/03/2016 09:54

I cannot bear the expression "hate the sin, love the sinner".

My son is gay. I love him. Because I love him, I also want him to enjoy a loving, fulfilling relationship - hopefully marriage, if he meets the right man. Yet I would have to hate that, because God hates the act of homosexual love.

What a torture for someone. To know that they are gay, and that God loves them. But that they can't engage in loving sex, because God hates that.

I'm sorry, but that's cruel.

whatsthatcomingoverthehill · 30/03/2016 10:31

Indeed it is BIWI, which is why many Christians no longer see homosexual sex as sinful. I reckon that within the next 20 years the 'mainstream' Christian position will be of acceptance and celebration of gay relationships.

To which the obvious question is what has changed? Have God's morals changed? But how does that fit with the idea of a perfect, unchanging God?

I think of God as being pretty pragmatic, working within the times and culture, all the while with imperfect people who get things wrong. And the Bible (which means library) is a record of what people have understood about God, written by many different authors over hundreds of years, each with their different slants and biases and trying to make sense of what was happening. To understand it you have got to take into account the context of when it was written.

headinhands · 30/03/2016 21:38

To understand it you have got to take into account the context of when it was written.

So God never had an issue with LBGT? Why oh why oh why would he let those passages sit in the bible!

Or he did but now he's mellowed?

NT

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whatsthatcomingoverthehill · 30/03/2016 22:47

It would probably be rather a big diversion to start talking about Christian attitudes to homosexuality. In brief though, no I don't have an issue with it. There aren't many passages about it, and none of them are considering committed relationships. (To save me going into all of the passages [http://www.affirmingbaptists.org.uk/steve-chalke-calls-new-christian-understanding-homosexual-relationships/ this] is pretty much my understanding.)

whatsthatcomingoverthehill · 30/03/2016 22:47

Sorry, link failure

headinhands · 31/03/2016 09:38

There aren't many passages about it, and none of them are considering committed relationships.

I'm just curious how you feel about God allowing the bible to even suggest homosexuality is wrong? Surely he knew the ambiguity would cause so much pain for so many people for so long? And if you feel that those verses don't mean what they actually say then how does one take anything to mean what it says? Resurrection? Heaven? Anything?

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headinhands · 31/03/2016 09:39

And don't worry about derailing here, it's my thread and people can go wherever they want with it.

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BIWI · 31/03/2016 09:44
Grin
whatsthatcomingoverthehill · 31/03/2016 10:16

It's not so much a question of derailing the thread as much as I'm not that interested in a full blown debate on homosexuality and the Bible. But your question is really a wider one about God letting bad things happen, and what the status of the Bible is in that.

In terms of the Bible, I don't see it as God just dictating for people to write down, but as I said earlier, a record of what people understood about God which is inevitably influenced by the time they were writing and their individual biases.

As for why bad things happen, well that's pretty much the question. If God is good why is their evil? For me it comes down to free will, having the ability to choose wrong as well as right. And that in Jesus, God has suffered with us. I'm not going to pretend that that is going to be a satisfactory answer to many people, and can understand why people would reject the idea of a benevolent God.

headinhands · 31/03/2016 10:35

inevitably influenced by the time they were writing and their individual biases.

But the things Jesus said and did are to be taken at face value? I'm just very interested how people say 'that passage depicts God in a way that offends my advanced 21st century morality so it doesn't mean what it says' but then say 'that bit seems nice so it means what it says'. How does one sit with the awareness that they are picking, editing and rewriting because of where they are in history?

And also knowing that an all wise deity wouldn't see how it makes it very possible that people will reject it feeling that it portrays a very human God, a God whose morality has changed along with humanity, or rather a bible that gets dragged along by humanity as they reinterpret the bits that become disturbing with the passage of time?

If I ever find myself stood in front of God these will be some very valid questions I would have. 'You wanted to communicate with humans but you chose a way that gave licence to abuse. You wanted people to see you as morally superior but you allowed yourself to be portrayed as a monster.'

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headinhands · 31/03/2016 10:41

For me it comes down to free will,

But God doesn't seem to value our free will much, there are many instances of him overriding people's free will in the bible. If you ever believed that God performed a miracle to help someone then he's a monster for the times he didn't stop a child being raped surely?

Furthermore if you could do something to prevent a child being abused you would, every time. But if you didn't and later on were held accountable to why you didn't prevent it when you could, you're not going to get much respect for maintaining that you think its wrong to meddle with someone's free will. They'll think you're insane!

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HeHasRisen · 31/03/2016 10:54

This place is actually not known. Jesus describes it [hell] but it can easily be on planet earth. Seeing that they didn't know the universe existed.
Unless you were to use the seven pillars to try and understand other places or universes that exist outside of our realm or in another dimension

The bible is actually surprising advanced in such knowledge. For example, it contains the claim of the world expanding, describing it as being stretched out as pulling a curtain (Isaiah 40:22), long before modern day scientists reached the same conclusion.

He stretches out the north over the empty place, [and] hangs the earth upon nothing.
(Job 26:7)

The bible said the stars are too great in number to count, long before science believed it to be the case with the advent of powerful telescopes in 19th Century AD. Prior to this, most thought there were no more than 6,000 stars (what could be seen with the naked eye from all points on the earth).
Genesis 15:5, Jeremiah 33:22, Hebrews 11:12

What I would like to know is why did he choose to give to one group of people. Seeing that other races appear in the bible to. Sheba being Ethiopian and the woman King David sleeps with was of a darker race.
Did God favour one blood line?

God chose the ancient Israelites because He had promised Abraham that his descendants would become a great nation and occupy the land of Canaan. God keeps His promises!

The Israelites were to be a model nation to other nations and that through them “all the families of the earth” would be blessed (Genesis 12:3). He wanted Israel to be “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Exodus 19:6). Other nations would see that when the Israelites obeyed God, they were blessed, and when they disobeyed God, they would be punished.

Deuteronomy 7:7-9 tells us, “The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath He swore to your forefathers that He brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; He is the faithful God, keeping His covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love Him and keep His commands.”

To me that is how racism can be stated. Hatred for other or the Gentiles

There is nowhere in the bible where God commands anyone to hate the gentiles. In fact, there are instructions to treat other nationalities living among them with respect and fairness. God instructed people “You shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt” (Exodus 22:21).

Plato knew of a higher being but was born before Jesus. What happens to him?

If Plato, or anyone else born before Jesus, believed in God they were saved though faith, just as we are today. The only difference is they looked to the Messiah and believed he would come, whereas we look back and believe he did come. That is all.

Romans 4: 3-8 says: For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favour, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. 8"Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."

By the way, if the world is already perfect and Jesus has done the saving then why would God want to destroy the world. Why build it in the first place if he already knew he was going to destroy it?

That’s a difficult question because the bible doesn’t tell us the reason why. However, from what the bible does disclose about God, we know that God created satan as good, just as Adam and Eve were. The major difference between satan and Adam and Eve was that satan was one of the heavenly beings, and therefore much more powerful that humanity. However God granted all beings freedom of choice, whether they were heavenly, powerful beings, or mere human mortals.

You could then, argue why did God bother to make anything at all, knowing it could turn against Him? Again, He doesn’t say why, but just says that He provided a way for us to still turn to him, regardless. So God remains sovereign, with or without evil having once been present. I speak of it as past-tense because the bible says one day it will be.

I think it's wonderful that parents love their children but hate the bad behaviour too! Punishment within reason.
Rape, war, drought is not within reason because it's out of individual hands. A woman who gets rape is not because she disobeyed. A child killed in war has no nothing todo with the war.
Lack of rain can be our fault now but I don't think it was in the Old Testament even though it was given as punishment.

Rape, war and drought are more to do with a fallen world, rather than specific punishment. If people turned to God and obeyed his word, the first two would be no longer a problem!

The bible says the sun shines on the righteous and the unrighteous alike. God is merciful both the those who haven’t turned to him yet, and those who already have. We are in a fallen world, so bad things will happen! Jesus warned “in this world you will have troubles.” Good thing this world doesn’t last forever, hey?!

whatsthatcomingoverthehill · 31/03/2016 10:56

What you see as 'picking and choosing' I see as necessary literary criticism. And yes there is a continual tension between free will and God intervening.

whatsthatcomingoverthehill · 31/03/2016 10:57

(Replying to headinhands)

HeHasRisen · 31/03/2016 11:00

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headinhands · 31/03/2016 11:01

necessary literary criticism.

But that's the point. It's necessary because of your morality that has been shaped by where you are in time. Gods book isn't doing the leading, humanity is, we're improving it because we're more moral than the way the God behaves in certain passages.

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