Did God Actually Command OT Brutality

[headinhands]

More to the point how do you believe in an all loving God but have such passages in the bible?

Have your opinions changed over the course of your faith?

Lila I think you should read the works Seneca and some of the other stoics. You will find similarity with what Jesus has taught about how to be a better person and how to live your life. Seneca the younger lived before Jesus.

Please I stand to be corrected if I have made a mistake.

Fyaral, the idea of 'Christian values' is always an interesting one to me - most of what seem to be held Christian values are common to most religions, and to non-theistic societies - and there's pretty good evidence that those values predated monotheistic religion.

I'd argue that those are human values - the code that supports behaviours necessary for a society that functions well and succeeds in the long term. So there is an evolutionary basis for them.

It's an interesting area. Are there any values / morals that are unique to Christianity?

Lila, I think that would be almost impossible because of the cultural baggage that would affect any translation. And of course any translation is imperfect. Look how challenging it can be for us to interpret Shakespeare despite an interlude of only 400 years or so. Add in the complexities of translating from numerous different languages where one word may correspond to several choices in English (camel through the eye of the needle), overlaid with the issue that many of the 'original' sources are in dead languages or are themselves translations of lost works.

Bible translation is absolutely fascinating, I think.

camel through the eye of the needle and spare the rod , spoil the child are perfect examples how misinterpretation or misunderstanding of the words and cultural practices leads to a completely different meaning.

The translations most Biblical scholars use are the NRSV and the RSV. The NIV is not bad. Id steer clear of the others if you want a very close translation to the original Hebrew and Greek. Stay well away from the Good News Bible as it is not accurate.

Thank you quencher I'll investigate!

JassyRadlett I was wondering if science could do it better... But I guess human nature means it's unlikely.

Headinhands, I said: "God is just the same [as us in terms of wanting justice] except the only difference is that some things we normalise and accept are not normal or acceptable to God. That is the only difference." This is not saying what you thought I said, which is [you thought]: "that we have normalised bad things to explain why the OT seems so brutal to us." Just wanted to clear that one up.

So am I right in thinking you don't agree with the death penalty for adultery?

Yes. It was a rule for the OT, under the Law, but now under Grace, we are not required to follow all these rules in the same way. Remember how Jesus treated the women caught in adultery? He insisted she was freed without harm. Having said that, there are consequences and it is not ok to commit adultery. Consequences such as broken marriages, aggrieved spouses and children, lack of trust between friendships, to name but a few.

If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

Corporal punishment was not always seen as awful as it is seen today. In fact, it's only recently been considered unacceptable and some Westerners still see fit to implement it as a punishment. There is an assumption that the slave is not innocent, because there was a call to fairness outlines above. Also, slaves were to be treated with respect, like family. People who used corporal punishment of their slaves also used it on their children, so this is not as much about slavery as it is about corporal punishment.

So if the government announced they were going to do away with the welfare system and allow people to own slaves, using the OT model, that would be okay? Would it be superior to what we have now?

Well they seem to be trying to chip away at benefits and social support! But my personal view is that it isn't the best case scenario. Neither is having people sit around all day when they're fit to work though. I would probably find somewhere in the middle, so people earn their benefit somehow. However, I am careful to point out that is my personal view only, not a biblical view.

Why is humanity moving away from slavery? If we have developed better, more moral ways of coping with poverty what couldn't God have set up a system like welfare that didn't involve owning people and being allowed to physically beat them?

Well we've covered the corporal punishment that people used on children as well as slaves. But in answer to your other question, humanity is right to move away from the sort of slavery we have seen in the past few centuries. This is different type of slavery to the OT, as I explained. Perhaps God didn't set up a welfare system specifically because one size doesn't fit all? (just guessing). You could say that being an au pair is a bit like OT slavery in that you live in the household and have your contract which binds you, but are treated like a member of the family, and in return for your labour, are fed and homed. It is not the sort of slavery you think of in the modern day.

I don't think it would be superior because I love independence and think independence is the perfect set-up. However I am not naive enough to believe that everyone can manage this in the modern world, and some people need extra support. I don;t think the bible is claiming slavery is superior, it is just outlining rules of how to treat your slave, just like there are rules with how to treat your spouse, parents, children, etc.

Why didn't Jesus say 'that OT stuff, that wasn't me btw, I would never ask people to do that'. Instead he quoted from it all over the place like he thought it was the bees knees.

Jesus was fulfilling the OT. He had no problem with any of it. He thought it was the beens knees because it is the bees knees! It is the inspired word of God.

Why didn't God create another world to send him to?

He has, it's called hell, and satan will spend eternity there.

If what I have asked are true does it mean that God does not care that much about the humans and living things he is meant to have created with love? How can he allow such evil to exist to torment earthlings? Why earthlings ?

God has a timeline for everything. There was a time to start the earth and there will be a time to end it too. The reason it hasn't happened yet is that God is merciful and his will is that all men be saved. He gives chance after chance for that to happen.

An all powerful God would have had the power to eliminate evil both from lucifer and everything else.

You're right God will win the ultimate battle, but it is in HIS timeline, not ours. One day he will bind up satan forever.

An all knowing God would have avoided the whole process unless we are or were his experiment that has gone wrong. we are like viruses he can't seem to control or exterminate. Which is why he kept on sending prophets, and in the end Jesus like an antivirus which is meant to change the programme.

God sent prophets to guide people and to prepare for the ultimate sacrifice. IF God had made us robots then yes, he'd have had good followers. But he obviously didn't want that any more than you'd want your spouse or kids to robotically follow you, without choosing to love you themselves.

If God is unchanging and the same today as yesterday I find it difficult to understand being able to believe in a loving, merciful God.

A loving, merciful God, can (and is) also a God of judgement. Someone once explained it like this. God has a law that must be followed. The wages of sin is death, thats consequences. That's judgement. In the same way that the law of gravity exists, it comes with consequences. IF you jump off a cliff, you can shout "God is love, God is love, God is love" all the way to the bottom, but it won't stop your bones smashing below. In the same way you can sin, and shout "God is love, God is love, God is love" to the top of your voice, but it won't change the consequences.

The only thing that can change the consequences is to accept the free gift of eternal life by believing in him. "The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life"

Do you believe you cannot be moral without being Christian HeHasRisen?

I believe you can have morals without being a Christian, of course you can. But morals is not what it’s all about, because that’s our works. We are saved by Grace and not our works. God says that even the most righteous cannot save themselves because our righteousness is as filthy rags to him. It is spoilt by our sin, you see.

Not that I believe in heaven but if it did, presumably I would not be allowed in. I have done bad things but I think overall I have helped more than I have harmed.

Its nice to hear someone that admits they’ve done bad things, a lot of people don’t like to admit it to themselves. However, you’re right, we are not saved by our works, so in order to get into heaven we have to be saved by grace through faith.

What about those who have never heard of Jesus? People born in remote jungle. Are they doomed to hell?

Romans addresses this really well. It speaks of how the knowledge of God is input to every man’s consciousness, and that there are signs all around us. Signs of God and of His invisible power and attributes. God says if you seek you shall find, and says that He gives more knowledge to those who are open to him. So a bushman out in a remote jungle, has an inbuilt sense of not being alone, and when he looks into the sky or the plants that grow, he has a sense of wonder about it all. He has an inbuilt conscience about right and wrong. God can come to anyone and speak to them, and watch their reaction. They are definitely not doomed to hell unless they harden and refuse to believe.

What do you think about heaven and hell?
I Look forwards to, and want to go to one, but not the other! I would hate to spend a day with the most evil people in the world, and would not relish the idea of spending an eternity with them!

Well, the Holy Spirit, that's another thing. . Why can't the HS tell all the people he/it is inside the same stuff. Like, why does he tell Pete that God doesn't like homosexuality but tells Mary that he hasn't got a problem?

And why does he tell more people he's okay with it now then he did 30 years ago?

God is not ok with it now anymore than he was before. The fact is that people have watered down and compromised to make everything fit with the modern world. Fornication, homosexuality and adultery remain as sinful to God now as they did then. People have changed because it suits them to cherry pick!

How can I argue the toss against someone with such high power and knowledge when I have much less human power and knowledge?

But that being assumed your pathetic human brain would be up to the job of distinguishing the right God out if the other 2'999 on offer.

Owch! My pathetic human brain?! No, God says He has created us with inbuilt knowledge of him. Its our human response to him that is critical, not our level of intelligence.

You say you are stupid compared to god but he designed a system where your eternal fate relied on your deeply inferior and flawed brain??

Eternal fate relies on whether we go against the bible and trust in ourselves for our salvation, or whether we adhere to the bible and trust in God alone for it.

Isn't the Holy Spirit meant to be your inner psyche or reason? The thing that makes you think.

No that’s your soul, the spirit within you. The Holy Spirit is the presence of God, when you get your conscience pricked, that sort of thing. Some find guidance but you have to be careful when people claim the Holy Spirit showed them or told them something, especially when it involves taking action! Most of what God wants to reveal can be found within the safety of the bible itself. That sense of challenge you get when you read a certain passage? That's the Holy Spirit.

Isn't this all down to how people interpret the bible? I thought it would be. Also, how you interpret the bible would matter depending on your environment, and how you have been brought up.

Interpretation of the bible is largely due to accurate study and taking things in context. Looking at who was talking, who they were talking to, and what they were talking about.

In Genesis Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge and evil. My philosophy teacher once said that it was not a real fruit they ate but instead had sex. That is why they were told as punishment they would be able to reproduce and bear children.

No, they actually ate a fruit! They were then told to go forth and multiply (have sex) after that.

Although I said God is not ok with it now anymore than he was before. I should also add that while God hates the sin, He loves the sinner. That is the wonder of it all.

He has, it's called hell, and satan will spend eternity there.
This answer is debatable because hell is debatable.

According to some bible historian the translation of the word hell was misunderstood. Out side of galilee or the walls of galilee had a rubbish dump or pit which had the same name to hell in Hebrew.

What they said was that Jesus used the term hell as an analogy to describe the place where those who don't follow him would end up. This was a place which was constantly burning.

I don't think Jesus says you will go to hell but he does state that people would be left behind.

And yes, there might be hell but Satan walked the earth. I thought Jesus encountered him when he was fasting for 40days and nights in the desert.

God has a timeline for everything. There was a time to start the earth and there will be a time to end it too. The reason it hasn't happened yet is that God is merciful and his will is that all men be saved. He gives chance after chance for that to happen.

I understand the concept that God is beyond time and space and we as humans are in the time continuum of the universe. Which means he can see the future, now and the past in one go.

Also, to say that he is giving us time to repent or correct our ways does not work in that concept. The ideology that we could be robots or a video game works perfectly because the moves are premeditated with different selected outcomes. The probability is finite because of the time and space we exist in.
Am using the computer thing as analogy not literally.

The God understanding of time also goes against the scientific understanding of time. In physics time infinite but it's also debatable.

With all of this, it still does not take away the fact that he let evil exist. And he sometimes used atrocities to defend his favourite people or punish them.

Sorry not derailing the thread. Understanding who God is helps with answering ops question.

"Fornication, homosexuality and adultery remain as sinful to God now as they did then."

Why is he so interested in what consenting adults do with their bodies? It seems an unhealthy obsession.

Fornication is one of my hobbies. Why should god be interested in that?

Dirty boy.

. He has an inbuilt conscience about right and wrong. God can come to anyone and speak to them, and watch their reaction. They are definitely not doomed to hell unless they harden and refuse to believe.

Plato theory of the forms and Aristotle's metaphysics /ethics deals with the concept of right and wrong and where we get it from. They give perfect explanations with the bible.

So someone like Plato would go to heaven then? Do you think he went to heaven the same time all the rest did when Jesus died ?

Remember that Plato believed in a different deity and Aristotle almost didn't but understood the mind and conciseness.

Eternal fate relies on whether we go against the bible and trust in ourselves for our salvation, or whether we adhere to the bible and trust in God alone for it.

I think it would be ignorant to follow the bible word for word. Maybe I don't understand salvation, if you were to follow the bible word for word you would have conflicting views contradicting each other. Which means you as person will be cherry picking too. Choosing what what would suit you.

I don't think Jesus says you will go to hell but he does state that people would be left behind.

Jesus talks of hell as being a fire. In Mark 9:43 Jesus describes hell as "go into hell, where the fire never goes out" and in Matthew 23:33 as of a place of condemnation "“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" and of a place where satan and his angels will be condemned. "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;" (2 Peter 2:4).

He also says: "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22)

With all of this, it still does not take away the fact that he let evil exist.

Not forever. The day of judgement is coming for all, satan and his dark angels included. There will be a day when satan is powerless, bound forever. But that day will also mean the end of the world as we know it, ash as I said it is only by God's mercy and continued Grace (towards man) that it hasn't happened yet.

Why is he so interested in what consenting adults do with their bodies? It seems an unhealthy obsession.

Fear not, many sins are listed just as much. I only mentioned these specific ones because we had touched on them earlier and I was sticking with the theme. But lying, pride, greed, anger, covetousness, malice, hatred, are just a few other named sins that God hates. But like I said, He hates the sin but loves the sinner.

Having sex with my partner is not a sin though. Not to me. It's a consensual loving act. God must have some pretty warped thinking if he thinks that is sinful.

Homosexuality A SIN?

I think it would be ignorant to follow the bible word for word. Maybe I don't understand salvation, if you were to follow the bible word for word you would have conflicting views contradicting each other.

The bible fits perfectly and is coherent, accurate, and consistent. It is more reliable than man's word! Why don't you set yourself some time and investigate the prophesies that the bible has got 100% right. It is truly amazing.

Which means you as person will be cherry picking too. Choosing what what would suit you.

I disagree, with respect. Test me and see if thats true!

So someone like Plato would go to heaven then? Do you think he went to heaven the same time all the rest did when Jesus died ?

You are asking me to read the heart and mind of man, which I don't have the power to do. That is between each person and God. He knows the genuine response, I do not.

No that’s your soul, the spirit within you. The Holy Spirit is the presence of God, when you get your conscience pricked, that sort of thing. Some find guidance but you have to be careful when people claim the Holy Spirit showed them or told them something, especially when it involves taking action! Most of what God wants to reveal can be found within the safety of the bible itself. That sense of challenge you get when you read a certain passage? That's the Holy Spirit.

I don't agree with that. Even the bible does not agree with that because it states that the soul and spirit are separate. Not even Holy Spirit.

You can have conscience or rationale which would be the mind. The soul needs the mind to help it function.the mind is where your memory is processed and stored.

Well the spirit when you read the bible it comes across as form of energy. The thing that tells your soul what to do. So yes, it would be your psyche.

No, they actually ate a fruit! They were then told to go forth and multiply (have sex) after that.
The bible is open to interpretation unless you take literally. If you do then you are already contradicting yourself.
I would also say that if you believe literally, then that does not love room for science which has more evidence for the existence of the universe and how it's created.

By the way, I think the sex theory makes more sense. Even though I don't believe it.

And the story about lucifer and his followers having sex with humans and creating sub or sinful humans would make sense if you were to look at it in that context.
Interpretation of the bible is largely due to accurate study and taking things in context. Looking at who was talking, who they were talking to, and what they were talking about.

I should also add that while God hates the sin, He loves the sinner. That is the wonder of it all.

Why is that particularly wonderful? It is exactly how most parents feel about their children. It's certainly how I feel about my four year old multiple times most days.

Given a creation story that focuses on a father-child relationship with the deity, as in the Abrahamic faiths, it seems natural that the relationship as set out should mirror the human equivalents.

It also explains why people's perception of what God would want or like seems to change over the centuries - it is how people can process and understand the idea of God as a parent, in line with their own concept of how a parent behaves, which is not constant.

Daniel affirmed that his “spirit” was “grieved” within his body (Dan. 7:15

The prophet Ezekiel declared that the “soul” (i.e., the person) who sins will surely die (Ezek. 18:20)

Soul and spirit are considered to be synonymous.

I think it's wonderful that parents love their children but hate the bad behaviour too!