How do you forgive someone who isn't sorry they hurt you? Is it really that important to forgive?

[ElizaPickford]

I've just finished reading The Railway Man and it is ultimately a book about forgiveness. It got me thinking - forgiveness was obviously the right thing for the main character to do, no doubt made easier by the fact that the person he needed to forgive was desperately sorry and had spent much of his life trying to atone.

I'm not directly trying to relate my situation to the one portrayed in that book - however I've been struggling for a long time with the fact that I was betrayed by one of my parents and have been badly damaged on several levels by their actions to me throughout my life. I no longer have anything to do with them but I do think about them often and find myself struggling with the idea of forgiveness.

One one level, I would love to be free of all the feelings I still have of resentment for what has gone on and suspect I would be more at peace if I could forgive. However, I know that from a logical perspective that I don't know how to forgive. I can say that I do but ultimately I am still left sad and angry and forgiveness does not feel authentic. What makes it worse is that the person I feel I should forgive actively does not give one tiny shit about their behaviour - they think that they tried their best and "if that's not good enough then tough shit." There is no salvaging the relationship at all I don't think - I've tried but it is completely one way traffic and I'm not a masochist.

So the question is - is it possible? Has anyone done it? Or do I need to just reconcile myself to this feeling of sadness that underlies everything I do for the rest of my life? How important is forgiveness anyway - is it mentally safer to remember that whatever happens this person cannot be trusted and that even if they were sorry I need to keep my guard up?

The difference, as I see it, between someone who is unrepentant and someone who is repentant, is that the unrepentant person may never receive forgiveness. Not because there is no forgiveness there, but because they would not accept they need forgiveness.

Not that I take my earlier apology back for 'badgering' you with my questions different. My apology was and is genuine because I do not mean to offend. So sorry again for making you feel 'badgered'.

I just don't fully understand. I think it can be difficult to negotiate where it is acceptable to question people's views, especially on MN, where we only have people's posts to respond to. Is there an acceptable way to question, in order to gain a better understanding?

I think it can be difficult to negotiate where it is acceptable to question people's views

Here's a hint - when they say BACK OFF. Different actually said 'Very nicely, back off!' How much clearer does it need to be?????

Even if I did start to judge, it would be momentary, because I believe in forgiving people, whether they are repentant or not.

Did you SERIOUSLY just say this????

In other words 'I can say what I like, because even if it means I'm judging you, because I'm such a forgiving person I would forgive whatever it is I see as wrong in you that caused me to judge'.....

The mind boggles.....

Froot Oh, so you think I should have stopped posting on this thread at that point? I ask this because I didn't ask Different, or anyone else for that matter, any more questions concerning why they did not feel the need to forgive, after that point. I merely posted my own views regarding forgiveness after that. Is this still unacceptable?

No I don't think it is right to judge people. I don't read posts with the intention of judging people. However I am not immune from doing so, accidentally, I have a value system. I was just explaining the judgement would be short lived, I hope, because my value system includes the need to forgive and be forgiven.

itsfab I'm sorry you can't see any positives and seem so down on yourself. You don't sound like a crap mum at all. You sound strong and loving and you should be proud that you have broken a chain of behaviour that would have been easily followed, replicating your own upbringing .

Froot your post of 13.30 sums up perfectly my own view/interpretation of forgiveness and Badvoc, I think it explains why it isn't necessarily about giving the perpetrator of a wrong anything, rather the victim giving themself a kind of freedom.

On the subject of physical/mental health, recently posted, I believe that is true. Someone who has not forgiven may of course be perfectly fine and certainly not consumed by bitterness, but for some people the issue will manifest itself in other ways, from the more obvious - depression, poor self esteem, mood swings, outbursts of temper - to the much less so - migraines, digestive issues, chronic fatigue, disordered or emotional eating, an inability to lose weight. The mind-body connection is incredibly strong and that 'knot' that Froot refers to can do a lot of harm, shouting for release.

No, sleep, I can't see any positives from being abandoned, beaten, unloved, starved, unwanted and abused.

Maybe you missed some words out. I have already said there are no positives from what happened to me when you suggested I look at positives from my past.

Itsfab - by the sounds of it what has happened to you has been horrific. One of the effects of being treated badly by a parent, is that we don't learn to look for the right things in a partner, and one of the 'negatives' that come out of it is that you can easily go into another abusive relationship - which is what I guess happened to you.

But one of the 'positives' (for lack of a better term) from the combination of those incidents is that hopefully things like your 'bullshit radar' is actually honed quite well. Perhaps you are far more empathetic to others in pain, perhaps you are a very good friend, as a result of being determined to be trustworthy and supportive.

This is what we're talking about when we say positives. The actual events? Nope, nothing positive in them at all.

And I'm guessing by your comment 'stop threatening to take the kids away' that you have to maintain some sort of connection because he has access to the children, which is a pain which will continue for a very long time, and I feel for you.

Maybe one day you could take the step to forgive, in that you can take the steps to free yourself of it. But maybe not. That is something that is up to you, and whether you choose to or choose not to, no blame should EVER be attached to you.

Right now I suspect you need to be listened to though. Too many people tell you how you should be dealing with it, what you should be feeling, what the next steps should be. How many actually just listen to you, and let you unburden yourself with no judgment?

I haven't been in an abusive intimate relationship with a man. Not sure where you get that from. A couple hit me and I left as immediately as I could and that has had no effect on me really.

I am a very good friend but have none locally.

I am actually on the verge of tears as I feel such a failure. I posted an OP to ask for help and deleted it as I knew how it would go.

I feel I am constantly telling the kids off, it doesn't stop their horrible behaviour to each other and rudeness to me and now 2 are playing nicely together and I am feeling shit, a failure and like I want to run away.

I just feel I am a horrible person and that it is time I listened and stopped being here.

There is no "he" threatening to take the children away .

My mother tried that. I have no contact with either parent, never will. Haven't lived with my mother since aged about 2 years, never did with my father.

Am I not typing what I am thinking or are people not reading properly?

I feel alone in the world. I just want a friend and someone who will care about me. Someone I can cry with and who won't be all dismissive.

I know I will regret posting this.

itsfab I'm so sorry if I wasn't clear, of course there was nothing positive in the horrendous things you've endured. But from what I read in your posts, you are an incredibly strong person, you love your DC's and care for them properly. That, to me is a positive, that you didn't let what happened destroy you (which would be understandable), you also sound as if you are fairly fierce in the way you love your kids - in a completely opposite way to how you were parented...definitely a positive thing for your DC's.

itsfab I cross posted with you. Please don't feel like a failure, it's the last week of the summer holidays, if they were being nice to each other all the time and you weren't feeling like you were constantly telling at the dc's by now you'd be a bit odd .

Please type your OP for help, MN can be an amazing place to find it .

Itsfab, I guessed, and I'm sorry I got it wrong.

I deliberately didn't want to search your other posts because I didn't want to stalk you on MN.

Have you tried starting a thread on the 'other' place for support? It's quite confidential, and doesn't stay forever.

Sorry if I was snappy. I feel sorry for myself and I hate that with a passion.

Just tried to talk to the two playing nicely and I don't think it went well .

It isn't even part of every day that the kids get along. Most days they fight, argue, are mean. When they are nice together it is so rare I barely dare breathe. Sometimes I have to blow my top and then they get on, they are then playing nicely while I am left exhausted and feeling a failure. Yesterday I felt bullied by them.

I love my kids more than life but don't know how to bring them up properly. Surely if I did they wouldn't be so rude.

I am very bright but clearly stupid as I don't know what I am doing as a parent.

I was an excellent nanny who cared for kids who have all turned out great yet mine are rude to DH and I a lot and have no clue when they have gone too far.

I have all the books but nothing sticks in my brain.

Look, I am boring myself now. I have said all this before. I am not sure what will change tbh. I hate myself. I am just so tired.

Oh Itsfab I think siblings just often argue and can be mean. Me and my brother did and get along great as adults. My DH and his sisters also argued. This doesn't mean you are a crap parent.

I think the difference between looking after other people's children and your own is that when your own children do wrong you feel responsible (just because they are your's) in a way that you don't when other people's children do wrong and this can hurt. I have felt the same if my DC has done something wrong. But all children have to grow and learn and will make mistakes, do things wrong, behave badly at times. There are no easy answers, no owners manual that can tell you how to do it all perfectly so it does not matter if they do not stick in your brain.

I think the thing that makes it worse for you is that you are being very hard on yourself. You are not a failure. From what you have said you have survived a horrendous ordeal from your childhood. Now you have to recover. Part of this involves being kind to yourself. Get help/advise/regarding parenting if you need it.

Regarding the forgiveness of your abusers I think you just have to view them as being very damaged, like hurt dangerous animals that you unfortunately came across, and relegate them as such. However let yourself heal a bit more if thinking of them right now is too painful. Maybe counselling could help with this?

Deep down I know my children are normal so I know it is ME With the problem in that I don't know how to respond when the children are being horrible. As advised I tried ignoring but two of them have said separately that I love the others more as I don't tell them off. I love them all the same. They all have special places in my heart for different reasons and I don't favour any of them. So when I do what I think is best and the kids say stuff like that I just lose the plot and don't know what to do.

I will never forgive them. Not interested why they did it. Because they could probably and one in particular because I was worthless. Seeing what is happening at the moment it seems that SA is very much dismissed as minor and not something to be worked up about.

I have tried counselling. It has never helped and made me ill tbh.

Just having someone care about me for a few moments has really helped, thank you .

And I am really sorry if me explaining some of my beliefs has been hurtful. I can see with hindsight not everyone is in a place where they are able to deal with past hurts, disentangle all their feelings.

I do think forgiveness helps healing but sometimes you have to feel you are in a safe enough place first to allow yourself to remember the trauma and this is OK.

Oh, THAT's normal, Itsfab. DS1 loves telling me that I obviously don't love him, and only love DS2. They are acting perfectly normal, and so are you. Feeling overwhelmed when your children are acting up is NORMAL.

Children instinctively know what buttons to push to get a response. (The adorable, painful little blighters.....)

Capsium .

And regarding not becoming overwhelmed by you DC's wrong doings, what I have found helpful in the past, when mine was going through a real meltdown phase (lying on floor and refusing to move quite often, too big to carry) and had just received a Statement of SEN, was purposely focussing only on the positives, no matter how small. I wouldn't even speak negatively, which probably annoyed some (a lot of) people when they wanted a good moan, but it did really help me cope.

itsfab are the dc's rude to other people? Mean to other children? If not then you are doing just fine, siblings keep a special kind of meanness and animosity for each other, it's definitely not a reflection on you . And as Froot says, they know exactly how to press your buttons and do so with 'you love x more than me' routine. They sound very normal and very aware that they are completely loved by you-you of all people must recognise that that, possibly above all else, is the best thing you can do as a parent, give the dc's the unshakeable knowledge of how much you love and always will love them.

the point made above about unburdening yourself to someone is very important. My DH listened to my story and told me for two hours that it wasn't my fault, that I wasn't to blame. That was the start of me consigning it to the past and getting on with my life.

I haven't forgiven and I am happy with that.

I do understand things from my perpetrators position though- he was a nasty malicious bastard who thought only of himself.

Easy

.