How do you forgive someone who isn't sorry they hurt you? Is it really that important to forgive?

[ElizaPickford]

I've just finished reading The Railway Man and it is ultimately a book about forgiveness. It got me thinking - forgiveness was obviously the right thing for the main character to do, no doubt made easier by the fact that the person he needed to forgive was desperately sorry and had spent much of his life trying to atone.

I'm not directly trying to relate my situation to the one portrayed in that book - however I've been struggling for a long time with the fact that I was betrayed by one of my parents and have been badly damaged on several levels by their actions to me throughout my life. I no longer have anything to do with them but I do think about them often and find myself struggling with the idea of forgiveness.

One one level, I would love to be free of all the feelings I still have of resentment for what has gone on and suspect I would be more at peace if I could forgive. However, I know that from a logical perspective that I don't know how to forgive. I can say that I do but ultimately I am still left sad and angry and forgiveness does not feel authentic. What makes it worse is that the person I feel I should forgive actively does not give one tiny shit about their behaviour - they think that they tried their best and "if that's not good enough then tough shit." There is no salvaging the relationship at all I don't think - I've tried but it is completely one way traffic and I'm not a masochist.

So the question is - is it possible? Has anyone done it? Or do I need to just reconcile myself to this feeling of sadness that underlies everything I do for the rest of my life? How important is forgiveness anyway - is it mentally safer to remember that whatever happens this person cannot be trusted and that even if they were sorry I need to keep my guard up?

My example would be my parents who gave me a very dysfunctional childhood - nothing really bad, just not nice and relaxed. I grieve for what I missed out on, but I don't forgive them. I understand and know they had reasons. But this doesn't excuse them. But I don't hold lots of anger and bitterness as such or wish them ill. Neither do I feel the need to forgive though - why would I?

Sleepwhenidle- they are totally unforgivable though. Even if I accept by forgiving them it doesn't make it okay what they did, I still can not ever forgive them. TBH it doesn't add to my pain not forgiving them. Nothing could.

And I don't give a shit if they are damaged themselves. It doesn't excuse what they did. It is still a conscious decision to do each and everything they did. I know that makes me sound bitter and I hate that but maybe I am right to be bitter that these people fucked up my childhood and I live with it every day.

I know I will get completely flamed for that but walk a mile in people's shoes and remember that each and everyone of us is unique and no one can totally understand anyone else.

But there is absolutely nothing to lose by forgiving.

Forgiving does not mean you have to leave yourself vulnerable to being hurt again. You can still forgive and take steps to protect yourself and your loved ones.

It just means that you do not seek vengence against the perpetrator. Is vengeance sweet? Or would it make you as corrupt as the perpetrator? Why let them corrupt you?

Capsium I think we are on the same page when it comes to the effect on the person doing the forgiving - for me there is nothing to lose (except negativity) and everything to gain (freedom from feelings of resentment/hatred/blame) for the person doing the forgiving. But you have the more kind/generous motivation of the greater good for the perpetrator and society generally -that's admirable but not an essential part of the process.

Sparkling I think forgiving can be an act of will, an incredibly difficult one that can take years, even a lifetime, but the closer you move towards it then the more at peace you can be generally. If you genuinely bear no ill will or anger towards someone who did you wrong then arguably you have forgiven them?

Making me out to be potentially as corrupt as the perpetrator just fills me with anger tbh and is reprehensible to suggest. Granted you don't know the crime and actions.

It is far too simplistic to imply someone is filled with negativity because the can't forgive someone who has hurt them horribly.

Itsfab you misunderstand me, seeking vengeance which is equal to the wrongdoing done to you would make you as corrupt as the perpetrator - as their wrongdoing would lead you to committing an equally malicious act.

Sleep I think it is important to point out there needs to be room for repentance / rehabilitation in Society because without it you are left with vengeance and retribution, which can be never ending. Forgiveness provides this 'room'. This just makes the reasons as to why to forgive more compelling for me.

I haven't said anything about seeking vengeance against them I don't think. I just want justice.

How do you define justice in terms of how it should work?

Retribution? Rehabilitation? Preservation of society? Deterrent? Protecting the innocent from dangerous individuals?

Apart from the retribution element the other elements of justice can include forgiveness.

Admitting what they did

Apology

Jail time

--

Admitting what they did

Apology

Stopping threatening to take my kids

That would do. I am not going to forgive them and it makes no difference to me that I won't. If I did I would still feel as I do. Why should I forgive them, they did unforgivable things.

Would you like the perpetrators to repent, understand what they did was wrong, essentially change their ways?

To actually see this you for yourself, you have to be able to forgive, otherwise you will never believe it, even if it does happen, even if they do change. If no one offers any forgiveness, ever, there is no hope that rehabilitation is possible. Which means a very different type of society...

Neither will repeat what they have done so makes no odds if they understand what they did.

I think I will leave it there. I don't like feeling like I have to justify my decisions even though we are just "chatting."

You don't have to justify your decisions to me Itsfab. I was just trying to explore what you meant and the implications.

I find unforgiveness in people quite frightening, if I'm being very honest, because of where it can lead. However, that is not to say I do not appreciate there are circumstances where forgiveness can be very difficult for people.

It has no consequences, me not forgiving so not sure where you think it will lead.

Could you try and think of it as letting go and moving on and not forgiveness. Like yes they were a piece of shit for treating you the way they did and they were wrong and they still don't care. Why should you forgive under those circumstances. Forgiveness usually means reconciliation and there isn't any and in a way why should there be.

I would love to move on and not have it affect me any more but it is not likely to happen given how long it has been.

It is two separate people that have done different things to me and I long for the day they are no longer on this Earth. I will be safe then and so will my children.

I can not get my head around forgiving someone who doesn't accept they have done wrong.

Yet I feel a failure that I can't get over it and be as if none of it ever happened.

itsfab I'm not sure being as it never happened is either realistic or something to aim for...it did happen, it did hurt you, it also played a part in making you the person you are today and however many negative effects of that there are, can you find any positives? That is perhaps a starting point. You definitely shouldn't feel a failure for how you feel about it all, feelings are what they are, no right or wrong.

I was a child, my mother was an adult. She had a choice as to how she treated me, I didn't have any choice until I was able to leave home at 18.

I won't forgive her for treating me differently to my siblings, her back story is no relevant here because I have managed not to carry my back story into the parenting of my children & I have done the total opposite to her.

Forgiving her doesn't help me & in my mind would be me telling her (or myself if I choose not to openly share that forgiveness) that what she did was OK. And it wasn't.

That said, I have moved on without forgiving. I do understand what happened, that doesn't mean I have to forgive her for making the choices she did, or for the treatment she gave me.

She had a choice. I didn't.

They are forgiven, simply because it was such a waste of energy to hold a grudge.

I don't hold grudges. Doesn't mean I have to forgive the actions of people who had a choice as to how they treated me.

The difference may be is that I no longer have any wish to see her, or be part of her life. I ceased contact over 20yrs ago & to be honest, that was more helpful than forgiving. Walking away.

I refuse to let people who hurt me stay in my life.

Forgiveness is putting down the burden of wishing them retribution, it's no longer carrying the weight the wrong on your shoulders to put right I carry no burden of, nor wish her retribution. In fact, I wish her no ill, because I am not that kind of person! And I don't carry the weight of 'wrong' on my shoulders, I have done nothing wrong that I need to put right. Saying I wish retribution is making me sound as bad as her. Why would I want to inflict the pain of what I went though on her? I wouldn't...Why should I be carrying the weight of her wrong doings?

but it is immensely freeing and strengthening because we get our whole self back. I have my whole self back. That process started the moment I cut her out of my life & my dh & my girls helped in that process.

I don't care that others forgave those who wronged them, forgiveness is as personal as the abuse/wrong doings suffered by those who were wronged & I REFUSE to forgive what I lived just because others have forgiven "worse".

I find the idea of living in a world where people don't value forgiveness a bit scary. It's important to me to know that when I do something wrong there is the possibility that I might not be defined for ever by my wrongdoing,I don't 'not value forgiveness', I just don't see the need to forgive a certain person for what they did. It doesn't mean that I don't forgive everyone. I guess it depends on what that wrong doing is though, doesn't it? A friend once hurt me & I cut contact, in time I forgave her & our relationship is blossoming!

Yet, my mother humiliated, abused, neglected & hurt me to the point where I felt worthless. If I did that to my children, I would expect forgiveness of any kind. Because it is a huge betrayal. When the one person who made enough of a commitment to bring you into this world turns against you in that way, then yes, she IS defined by that wrong doing.

I don't see what being Atheist or Christian has to do with this. I don't see where religion comes in to it.

The issue grows within you, as does the bitterness and you get eaten away by it. Nope, not being eaten away by what she did.

Can't people understand that in some situations, people feel NO NEED to forgive in order to move on & get on with their lives?

Just because I can't/won't/don't want to forgive, doesn't mean I am spending all my time hell bent on retribution, crying & breaking down in the corner. My life is pretty good right now. What she did made me who I am, but she didn't break me & neither does the memory of what she did.

It's also pretty insulting to suggest that because we can't/won't/don't want to forgive, we are some how still thinking of revenge & are not able to get on with our lives. That may be true of some, but as a whole, most, I think, live quite happy lives. Some posters make it sound like a large black cloud that will magically lifted once we see how 'important' forgiveness is.

Choosing to forgive, making a choice to do so, even when she doesn't have the feeling of forgiveness at the moment, could really help her, And it could make absolutely NO difference to her. Like I said, forgiveness isn't magical, it doesn't lift an invisible black cloud. OP is probably feeling the way she does because she has been hurt. Forgiving the person who did that isn't going to make the pain go away!

I would NOT expect forgiveness of any kind

We set ourselves free from the ties of them and constantly reliving the agony I don't relive the agony. And even if I did, forgiving my mother would NOT make that agony go away. I have no ties to her. She may as well be dead. I grieved for her a long time ago, in actual fact, while still living with her. I don't need to set myself free of ties.

Why is everyone, who is advocating forgiveness, somehow thinking that we (who don't want to forgive) feel burdened? Tied? Living with the agony of their (the person how hurt us) actions? Unable to move on? Being eaten away by bitterness? That we are not not our 'whole self'? Wishing for retribution? Holding grudges? Constantly reliving the agony? Negativity? Need freedom from feelings of resentment/hatred/blame?

Why? I don't recognise any of the above in myself, I certainly have no need whatsoever to forgive what I lived through at the hands of my mother in order to live my life. Also, if I forgive her, does that mean (in relation to "freedom from feelings of resentment/hatred/blame?") that I can no longer blame her for what she did, or that she is no longer to blame? Because she is to blame. My forgiving her won't ever take that responsibility & burden from her.

Do I wish her well? Do I wish her ill? I don't think about her, so am unable to wish anything on her, to be honest.

I have seen forgiveness defined as a conscious decision to give up your justifiable right to revenge I have no "justifiable right" to revenge & neither would I want it. I don't need to give it up. It doesn't need to be given up, so it isn't holding me back.

The thing is that the people who engage in damaging behaviour, that are totally unrepentant, often are so because they are deeply damaged themselves. I would say that what I lived damaged me, but look, I made a CHOICE to not let if affect my adult life, my parenting, the people around me. I could hurt people left, right & centre & "blame" my damaged background, but I made the concious choice NOT to live that life. I decided not to be that person, we ALL have a choice about what we do, how we treat people. Very few people are so inherently damaged that they have NO choice!

If there were no forgiveness, at all, by no one, available to them there would be little hope for their repentance because their repentance would become a futile act So if their victims don't forgive them, they cannot be truly repentant? Bollocks. Sounds like victim blaming to me.

Itsfab You don't have to forgive! Like I said before, it isn't a magical thing that will ease what we went through, as suggested by some here.

But there is absolutely nothing to lose by forgiving. And, to be honest... there is absolutely nothing to GAIN by forgiving! It doesn't shift a switch & make it all go away, or disappear from our memory banks. It's still there, it still happened. The person (who did it to us) still doesn't care! I have NEVER wished vengeance against my mother...NEVER! Because I am not the kind of person to pay back hurt & pain in kind. Vengeance doesn't & has never lived in my life where she is concerned.

I find unforgiveness in people quite frightening, if I'm being very honest, because of where it can lead My un-forgiveness has lead to me being in a better place. It has lead me to being able to parent differently to how she did. I have not sought revenge, to suggest that because I have not forgiven, you find that frightening is rather insulting to me. And rather says more about you than it does me, in my opinion! I would hate to hurt anyone the way I have hurt. I got to that point without forgiveness.

Just my personal view (as an agnostic) but I think a lot of people see forgiveness as something you do for the person who hurt you/did wrong to you, like a kindness to them or 'letting them off' when I don't think it's that at all. Forgiveness is defined as letting go of any anger and resentment about what happened and not wanting to punish them yourself (if something illegal has happened I see seeking legal redress and any punishment that leads to as a separate thing) - which is something you'd do purely for you, to stop what happened damaging you more by having to carry that resentment. It might incidentally be a good thing for the other person if it means you choose to carry on a relationship with them etc but forgiving them certainly isn't for their benefit, it's for yours.

I liken it to going to hospital if someone stabs you - you go for you, to heal and make yourself feel better but it has a side effect for them that you'll save them from a murder charge and they might feel better that you're 'ok now'. If you really wanted to punish them you'd choose not to go and bleed to death, but you'd only be hurting yourself more in the end. I see forgiveness exactly like that, you do it for you to heal and feel better - sod whether the other person wants you to or not.

If they are truly sorry about what they did it might bring them some comfort, but why should that bother you if you've let go of it. If they're not truly sorry but only trying to make you/others think they are (like the people who yell 'sorry, forgive me' all the time but then go on with whatever the problem was in the first place) then forgiving them, properly, is one of most unintentionally cruel things you could do because, cliche as it is, forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. You can let go of the resentment about what happened without saying it was ok for them to do it and without ever wanting a relationship again so all they're left with is not being able to hurt you again, even at a distance if you've let go of the anger, and their own deficiencies (whatever caused them to hurt you in the first place) while they have to watch you enjoy your life.

For the people who aren't being 'eaten up with bitterness' but feel they haven't forgiven I'd say if you really don't feel bitter at all then you've forgiven beautifully, but not forgotten.

different I think we are talking at cross purposes. I believe a person can still forgive but take steps to stop an unrepentant perpetrator from hurting them again. This could include going N.C.

For me someone has forgiven, at the very least to an extent, if they don't seek revenge or retribution for the wrong that has been done to them.

A person can still blame the perpetrator for the wrong doing and at the same time forgive them for it. There would be no forgiveness needed if there was no blame. Although I do think forgiveness is easier when you can appreciate the flaws within people and how these flaws can contribute to them doing wrong.

When I said that there needs to be forgiveness available, from someone at least, in order for repentance to take place, otherwise repentance becomes a futile act, I was talking generally. The forgiveness need not necessarily come from the victim. Although if taken to the extreme and nobody every forgave, society would be very different. Even deciding what acts are forgivable and what are not, is difficult, as people could too easily set standards that were far too idealistic, in terms of what is achievable. What do you do with the people that are unforgivable'? Are we qualified, as people / a society to deem what it unforgivable? If we got this wrong would that be forgivable?

differerent- I wholeheartedly agree with your posts.

Why is there this assumption that unless we forgive then we are destroying ourselves?

It's simply not true is it. I don't want to forgive, I don't see that as a negative thing.