women wearing burqa, this riles me

[southeastastra]

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

Do you mean burqa or niqab?

Apologies. I meant niqab. Don't know what OP meant!

I think it's a patriarchial religion, and I think they are socially conditioned.

Yes, LRD, and I dislike that intensely. I find the comparison to high heels spurious: nobody's ever deemed shameful, disgusting, etc, for wearing flats! Of course 'covered' women feel more comfortable that way - they're surrounded by powerful messages saying their society will lose respect for them if they wear normal Western-style outfits in public. This is exactly like abusive men making their partners wear frumpy gear, only multiplied by a thousand. Wrong to 'blame' the women, yes, but not wrong to keep trying to raise consciousness.

I want to tell women wearing a niqab they are beautiful and it's wrong to hide from the world. I want to see their smiles (and their scowls).

Covering your faces just feels so isolating and absolutely wrong.

A friend who works closely with Muslim women from traditional Bangladeshi communities tells me that many of the woman she works with see wearing a Niqab as freeing and liberating, and as a chance to set aside a lot of the traditional focus on women's bodies. She says that they're so positive that she sometimes fancies wearing one herself.

OTOH, I know that I have a complex relationship with body hair - I know that it's a conditioned response not to like it, but at the same time, I do think my legs look nicer / better / more 'feminine' shaved. Something similar going on re Niqab?

A woman choosing to wear an item of clothing does not neutralise its patriarchal context simply because she has chosen to wear it. LRD's example of make up and high heels is a good one.

Sashh, I can't speak for anyone else, but my objections are around the concept of modesty; I therefore object to the examples you cite for the same reasons.

I have had discussions with Muslim friends abut this- some who choose to cover, some who do not- my views have shifted, but I am more critical of covering up than I used to be. I must add though, that I am wholeheartedly against any legislation prohibiting the wearing of religious dress. The state telling women what to wear does not strike me as any less patriarchal than the current situation. In fact, it is more so.

I agree, Tethersend. You can't implement freedom by banning people's choices over their own bodies.

The hairy legs thing works for me, too. It took me two whole years to train myself to be 'OK' with hairy legs on view. I'm still not happy with them but can now leave the house with bare, hairy legs, without feeling like the entire world's about to descend on me with sticks & venom!

That's what social conditioning is. I can say, in great honesty, that I feel more comfortable with waxed pins. This doesn't mean waxing is my free choice, though - it means I've been conditioned to feel shame about not waxing. Of course I "feel more free" and "more myself" when my legs are smooth: I feel more free because I'm conforming to my society's completely barmy demands on me as a woman; it means I'm free from shame.

Since many Muslim women face literal exclusion for going uncovered, a similar and hugely more powerful process is occurring with them.

I maintain my objection to niqab in public-facing roles, though, and am happy to see that legislated.

You can't implement freedom by banning people's choices

But can't you? It's a question - I'm not sure. What would happen if we banned full-face veils? Clothing laws feel pretty weird to me, since we live in a very laissez-faire society, but I cover up when I go to places that demand it. I wouldn't expect to go unchallenged (or unarrested!) if I wandered round Riyadh in a short, sleeveless dress.

Should we always support oppression?

Of course if these women are asked in public, they'll say it's their choice. They probably say they weren't that bothered about driving in Saudi Arabia anyway. Whether it's driving, female circumcision, banned from education or a full face veil, it's just indicative of a sector of society or country treating people as second class citizens based on gender. To suggest that it's a woman's/girl's choice is burying your head in the sand.

Mmm, yes, hairy legs a much better comparison than high heels!

high heels and hairy legs have some interesting differences, don't they?

heels are to some extent painful, impractical and restricting. OTOH, my beloved shoes just give me 3 inches more confidence.

shaving legs is about a certain low level of body modification, that differentiates adult women from adult men. It's time consuming and / or costly, but it isn't particularly impractical or restricting or necessarily painful.

I'd guess that wearing a Niqab is probably closer to heels, but presumably without the painful bit!

The women that my friend works with are extremely open about what does and doesn't work for them in a patriarchal culture, in terms of finances, access to opportunities, social choices, etc. They know that she won't shy away from involving the police, the Women's Refuge, social services, etc, if necessary. But in this informal environment, they seem generally very positive about covering up.

But, crescent, I disagree with all your statements there. Women do those things because of patriarchal values. "For men" doesn't have to mean 'to please the men with whom she's in contact'. It means her world is directed by men, according to values chosen by men.

When I wrote about hairy legs, I wasn't saying any particular man doesn't like them (there aren't any men in my life!) I was saying that patriarchy has been so successful, it has taught me to feel ashamed of my own legs.

I rarely wear makeup or style my hair. When I do, half the world - female and male - says "Oh! You look nice!" Those people aren't consciously meaning to say 'congratulations, you've conformed to male-determined values of how an English woman should present herself'. But that's the mechanism.

When the patriarchal values in a woman's life dictate she must hide herself from others, it sorely limits her range of communication and her integration into a 'western' society. It does worse than teach her to be ashamed of her legs, it teaches her that her entire body & face are shameful. Very much like the abusive husband who makes his wife wear head-to-foot clumpy knits, and says she mustn't look at other men.

If they are wearing the burka/niqab of their own free will, that's fine by me. (I've never seen anyone in a full burka, but there are quite a lot of niquab'd ladies around here.)

If they are being forced to wear it, that's not fine - but for pity's sake, why would you want to rant at them? Talk about victim-blaming. .

My friend wears a burqa when out. She wears it through choice, she's an intelligent, beautiful professional woman who had a very western upbringing. She told me it gives her a sense if spirituality and connected to god. It makes he feel empowered as it allows her to surrender societal ideals surrounding what women should look like and wear.

Underneath her burqa she is immaculately turned out, lovely clothes, hair and makeup.

Personally, I find the half naked young women walking around our city centre more concerning and frightening. Every woman should have the right to dress as she pleases. I was against the burqa myself until I met my friend and realised that underneath it we are just the same: wanting the best for our kids, worried about the economy, discussing fish pie recipes and best steam cleaners.

Grendel - that's not the point about shaving legs. The point is that NOT shaving them is psychologically painful. High heels are a fashion thing - there's a long conversation to be had about that (and often is!) but it's absolutely not the same as wearing full burqa. There are fashion aspects to that: in some regions, women are banned from wearing coloured or embellished habits - which is the leaders saying 'thou shalt not have fun with clothing', so could be similar to a British lawgiver saying all women must wear Uggs (or something.)

Sorry for the typos. How embarrassing! I blame the iPhone.

I'm giving up.

surrender societal ideals surrounding what women should look like and wear

Unfortunately, I don't think you're joking!

The point is that NOT shaving them is psychologically painful.
Is it? I shave mine because I like the feel of smooth skin better than furry. I like the feeling of shaving them in the bath. It's on a par with brushing my hair.

For me it's not principally the covering up ( although that is medieval and ridiculous) it's all the other stuff that goes along with it. It seems to go hand in hand with women being confined to marriage and childcare, to a highly sexualisd and frankly depressing conceptualisation of relationships between the sexes, the privileging of men over women.

So yes the female CEO can wear a short skirt and bells if she wants to that doesn't mean she is being oppressed and even better society provides her freedoms which mean that what she wears is pretty inconsequential.

The fact is that for all its problems, western culture is better fir women. I value the freedoms I have, not least the platonic friendships I have with men, I value the advances that have been made in the rights of homosexual men and women. I ferl that Islam and it's persiscyive on sex and gender politics is extremely retrograde.

Bells??? heels

i dont like the theory behind it, but as long as its a free choice, then its just one of those things