women wearing burqa, this riles me

[southeastastra]

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

[Perfectlypurple]

Just because you can't think of a reason it doesn't mean there isn't one or that it is anti feminist.

[Martorana]

"Just because you can't think of a reason it doesn't mean there isn't one or that it is anti feminist."

True. What is a feminist reason for a woman covering herself in public?

[MrsAtticus]

OP Not had time to read this whole thread, so sorry if it's been done, but can you say what you mean by a burka? I have never seen a burka in the uk, it's one of those big blue things with a grid for the face that women in Afghanistan wear.
Do you mean niqab? That is the face covering. I know many women who wear this, though I wouldn't in this country. They are well educated and intelligent and have made their choice.
Or do you mean a long flowing dress and a headscarf? That is what I wear, out of choice. I feel it is the best clothing I can wear to fulfil the request of God for me to be modest. I find it comfortable and dignified. I'm not making a point. Until recently (baby) I was working in a highly professional environment, often standing up to talk in front of many people, it was never ever an issue, thankfully most people are more interested in who I am than what I wear.
I'm a bit puzzled by the bag comment, lots of bags have writing on.
I live in a non-Muslim area where people are always friendly and polite to me. I chose to be Muslim, my family are not, so I don't feel I have been socially conditioned.
OP you might find you understand these women better if you interacted with them, not sure if you have the opportunity to do that where you are. Perhaps if you have not known many women who dress like this this personally, it is understandable that you think they are being forced into it and you feel threatened by it, but you would find the reality very different.
I don't particularly enjoy seeing women in low cut tops and short skirts, but it is their choice and I would never never pass judgement on them or assume they were dressing that way due to pressure from men, I would rather get to know people first.
Someone mentioned young girls in headscarves?
It isn't religiously necessary for them to wear them, but many want to, and many parents are happy to let them 'practise', rather than do it all at once when they do need to. For Muslim little girls, it is what mummy and her friends do, so it is seen as 'grown up', and a novelty, not as something oppressive. My DS also looks very cute in one!
For the record OP I'm kind if glad when people come out and say things like you did in this post, as at least then we get to discuss it, rather than people being too scared to say what they really think.

[MrsAtticus]

Mortorana, am slightly fearful of attempting to answer your question, as I'm not much of a debater, but I can at least tell you my experiences I suppose.
From my experience as a non-Muslim woman at work, when I was a pretty 20 something (I'm not anymore!), I always felt that my gender got in the way of interactions at work with men, either I was a sex object (comments made on my bottom), or I was patronised and treated like a 'young girl' by older men.
When I accepted Islam, I was very open to the Islamic dresscode, and after a while I began to dress quite 'conservatively' even compared to other Muslim women. I valued the protection it gave me from the 'male gaze', so to speak, and felt truly liberated by taking myself out of the situation where I could be judged for my attractiveness.
I have continued to find that the clothes I wear seem to inspire in men, partiularly in a work situation, a certain amount of distance and respect which should have been there in the first place, but wasn't.

[Martorana]

I think that's the issue for me, MrsAtticus - the way you dress is being dictated by men. And that's not right, surely? Either by faith leaders expecting "modest dress" (why do you have to cover your hair- and even in some cases your face- to be "modest"?) or by the behaviour of men in society. Why should women have to modify their behaviour to accommodate men's behaviour?

[MrsAtticus]

I kind of knew that would be your answer mortarana and I also understand what you are saying about why shouldn't you have to cover to be treated with respect. I agree to an extent, men should treat women with respect regardless of what they wear...but they don't.
In terms of the religion, is Islam God is neither male nor female and the request for modesty comes directly from God, so it doesn't feel to me like that's dictated by men.
My husband (I converted long before I met him) will tell me if he thinks my clothes are not right, or my hair is coming out of my scarf etc. I will also tell him if his trousers are too tight or whatever, men have to be modest as well. So this doesn't feel to me like he is dictating to me, we are both aiming towards the same goal, if you see what I mean.

[tethersend]

"How do you know their reasons?"

From talking to Muslim friends who cover.

Of course, not everyone has the same reasons for covering, but I have yet to agree with one.

[tethersend]

As far as the male gaze goes- it is the acceptance of the male gaze as something which just 'is' and allowing it to go unchallenged which I disagree with. Why should it be the woman's responsibility to remove herself from the male gaze? Why is it not men's responsibility to change it?

[Mumof5boys81]

[CoteDAzur]

"How do you know their reasons?"

It's not like they all have different reasons.

They believe God expects them to cover their faces, which is odd because there is not a single mention of covering faces in the Quran. In fact, the Quran is very clear that what is expected is for a woman's head & "bosom" to be covered, and for everyone to dress modestly. There is also the hadith where Mohammad says a woman's face and hands should be visible.

[Mumof5boys81]

Martorana I choose to wear the niqab because I feel it is an established practice in the religion and most women at the time of The Prophet Peace be Upon Him, chose to wear it. There are also ahadith that suggest some women did not cover their faces at that time so it has always been a choice. There are also female scholars in Islam and there always have been historically and many of those have chosen to wear the niqab. But, as mentioned in my previous post I also have worldly reasons for wearing it because it helps with my sensory issues and enables me to go about my business in public more easily.

If I had five girls it would be their choice whether to wear it, or not. Out of all of my friends with teenage daughters I can think of one whose daughter chose to wear the niqab and she doesn't anymore due to various reasons. Her mother and father have no problem with this. My boys dress modestly and they wear thawbs (robes) a lot, they never wear shorts or swimming trunks that are less than 3/4 length, and they never wear best tops outside either. That brings to mind another stereotype I often hear mentioned in these types of discussions 'you always see women covered head to toe in black and their husband who forced them to wear it, in shorts and t-shirt!'. I do know some couples like that and usually what it is, is the wife is far more religious of her own choice than the husband and far from him forcing her to wear what she is, he is against it and reluctant to appear out in public with her. One friend her husband refused to go out in public with her for two years :( xx

[Mumof5boys81]

Lol vest tops, not best :)

[CoteDAzur]

"I feel it is an established practice in the religion"

Which religion? Certainly not Islam.

By "established place", I assume you mean something like "Mentioned in the Quran as God expecting it" or "Mentioned in the hadith as Mohammad having ordered it", and the veil fails on both of those accounts.

Fair enough that you like your head & face to be covered for personal/sensory issues, though.

[Mumof5boys81]

Actually there are several hadiths that mention veiling the face although sometimes these aren't accurately translated into English. There is also an ayah of the Qur'an (33:59) that mentions a garment called a jilbaab which is historically known as a cloak like garment that covers the whole body including the face. All four madhabs (Sunni schools of jurisprudence) have held covering the face to be an Islamic practice and as far as I know the Shia Jafari school of thought holds the same view. My husband used to be like you and think that the niqab had no real basis in Islam and funnily enough, he grew up in Saudi, where contrary to popular belief it is not legally or otherwise obligated to wear it and only one aunt ever wore it there. He researched himself though, at my behest and had to admit he was wrong. Xx

[Mumof5boys81]

....and there are plenty of 'established practices' in Islam that are not ordered as obligations, for example superogatory prayers, optional fasts and so on. Just because these are not obligated actions does not mean they are not established Islamic practices. Xx

[Martorana]

I am disturbed by two things really - the fact that to be
modest a woman has to cover herself from neck to toe in a loose robe and cover her hair while a man has to wear three quarter length shorts and a t shirt. And that in this women are considered responsive for men behaving badly and responsible for stopping them from behaving badly. And I do have to say that I understand that the injunction to modesty technically applies to men and women- but I don't see men being punished for immodest dress or covering themselves head to toe.

[atthestrokeoftwelve]

I also think it's a bit insulting to men. What may happen if they catch sight of some bare skin? Leap into an uncontrollable sexual frenzy?
Most men are capable of control. By hiding women's bodies so much I think we end up creating a bigger sexual tabu. Covering up becomes self fulfilling.

[CoteDAzur]

Granted that you can always find some mullah to interpret surahs & hadiths in the harshest way possible, Islam clearly requires everyone to read & understand the Quran for themselves rather than look like a Church-like institution for guidance.

This is what the Quran says on the subject:
"... guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers..."

This is what Mohammad says on the subject:
Aisha reported that Mohammad saw Asmaa (the daughter of Abu Bakr) wearing thin transparent clothing, turned away from her and said "O Asmaa, if a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it is not allowed that any of her should be seen except this – and he pointed to his face and two hands.”

Mohammad seems to have had slightly different standards for his own wives, but there is no obligation whatsoever for Muslim women to be veiled and Mohammad has even said that a woman's face should be seen.

[CoteDAzur]

"there are plenty of 'established practices' in Islam that are not ordered as obligations, for example superogatory prayers, optional fasts"

The veil is something that Mohammad actually pronounced an opinion on - he said a woman should cover everything except her face and hands.

So why think the veil is part of Islam?

[Mumof5boys81]

My sons only wear 3/4 length shorts when they go swimming (single gender classes) or around the house! Not in public. Another thing is they are children and children make or female don't have the same rules of dress as adults. Also while it's not the case now, in the recent past in Iran and Saudi men wearing western clothing was an offence that could get them thrown in prison for a day or so. Again for men, wearing sleeveless thawbs and no full headcovering regalia in some locales in Saudi will get you chucked out of hotels or public buildings. There are women in the west who CHOOSE to cover while their husbands CHOOSE to wear shorts and t-shirt, again the assumption is always that the woman has been forced to dress that way while husband is free to wear what he likes. When this isn't the case, Islamically what he is wearing is incorrect. The friend I mentioned before whose husband refused to appear in public with her when she wore niqab wasn't happy until she not only stopped wearing niqab but also hijab and stopped really practicing any aspect of the religion. I saw her suffering a lot of psychological abuse from him and this is just as wrong as when someone is bullied into wearing the niqab (which is something I have never come across in 20 years as a Muslim) xx

[Mumof5boys81]

Côte d'Azur that Hadith about the face and hands is widely considered to be weak. Even for those Hadith scientists who don't consider it to be weak they explain that it is suggesting a minimum level of obligation, so the girl in the Hadith in question was wearing transparent clothing which did not properly cover the rest of the body, hair etc. In the Arabic language the wording of that Hadith does not state that covering more than this is not allowed just that covering less than this is not allowed. Also from my understanding and research it appears that particular Hadith is thought to date from the period before covering the face was ordained. There are ahadith that speak of the wives of The Prophet Peace be Upon Him were not recognised at all when they went out due to their face being covered Xx

[Mumof5boys81]

A man is responsible for his own actions in Islam and before women are instructed to dress modestly the wording of the verse about hijab tells men to 'lower their gaze' before anything else. Anyone who thinks covering up in Islam is purely to avoid 'tempting men' in a sexual way or otherwise, is way wide of the mark xx

[Mumof5boys81]

There is also some evidence that the lady in the Hadith about 'the face and hands' did cover her face immediately when this was ordained, even though she was not a wife of The Prophet Peace be Upon Him as did many of the other female companions not in The Prophet's household xx

[Mumof5boys81]

This is a really good concise article on the subject. The lady who wrote it is an American convert and feminist who does not herself wear niqab but recognises it as a good action in Islam. She no longer updates this site but is on twitter

www.muhajabah.com/whyniqab.htm

Much as it's tempting I will try to resist responding more to this thread because I have said everything I need to say and there is no benefit in debating and going round and round in circles xx

Xx