women wearing burqa, this riles me

[southeastastra]

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

[GarlicAprilShowers]

Oh, look, there have been lovely posts now! Thanks, Martorana & Cote :) Keep it up!

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Garlic - invoking Saudi Arabia is not a sensible response. Why should Muslims who are not Saudi and have never been to Saudi have their form of dress curtailed because of legislation in Saudi Arabia? Muslims who are British citizens wear the face veil, what does the actions of a foreign government have to do with them?

Cote - Ah, France. Have you heard Le Pen's latest wheeze? Apparently letting Muslim and Jewish school children having pork-free lunches is "caving into religious demands".

[CoteDAzur]

"Why should Muslims who are not Saudi and have never been to Saudi have their form of dress curtailed because of legislation in Saudi Arabia?"

I've often wondered something, maybe you can help answer it for me:

Would the veiled women in the UK like to live in Saudi Arabia?

If not, why not?

[CoteDAzur]

Then again, there is a case for burqa to be made when faced with scenes like these

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Cote - Maybe because she doesn't speak the language, doesn't have family there, would find it too hot... all the reasons anyone might not want to live in a foreign country.
Face veiling is not just a Saudi thing and mentioning Saudi Arabia is a non sequitur, which veers worryingly towards suggesting Muslims should take their "foreign" ways elsewhere.

It would be lovely for once to have a discussion about British Muslims which accepted they are British and that them living in the UK is not conditional on their religious practices.

[tethersend]

I can't help thinking that legislating against the niqab, or indeed any form of women's dress is simply mirroring the situation in countries where covering is compulsory. It would be sinking to their level by wresting the reins from one hand of the patriarchy and placing them in another.

[TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy]

Saudi women having been fighting to get their licenses back since they were revoked. To go on about they would say they were fine about it and compare their struggle to whether British women can wear traditional clothes is both absurd and reduces if not erases those Saudi feminists' fight.

Garlic - As an autistic adult, I would appreciate if you did not use my condition to make a point about face coverings. Many of the "therapies" done to autistic people to get them look people in the face (and other behaviours we don't get but are forced to emulate for NT comfort) are quite abusive and are part of why autistic people have such high rates of mental health problems. We know that looking people in the face is overstimulating even for neurotypical people. While changes are slowly being made on this, the public perception that we can't look at faces at all is really inaccurate and does not need more promotion.

Personally, I find facial expression often don't match words people say and can cause even more confusion - the amount of times I've heard people say 'you made a face' and force people to explain their face movements or people telling strangers to smile as if their faces are public property - having facial expressions can help or harm and are certainly not the main key to good communication.

I cover my hair. 90% of the reason is because my hair turns into a frizzy mess at the slightest movement and my life has been made so much easier with using them when out and/or around people I am not close to - and I like how I look in them. I don't want to spend more time on my hair than I need to (I also pick glasses frames based on how well they cover the inherited darker skin under my eyes so I spend less time on that because I hate comments on looking tired). The other 10% is that it is a small connection to my heritage and personal history that I can maintain and enjoy. In person, I would probably use the latter rather the former when asked because people seem to understand that better and are less likely to give me tips on my hair. I would not suffer any fall out from not wearing them, in fact I think my DP's parents would likely be happier.

[amals1]

I assume you feel comfortable talking to women in mini skirts or crop top but someone who chooses freely to cover themselves annoys you. Grow up!

[tethersend]

I feel comfortable talking to women who are covered or uncovered.

That doesn't mean I agree with their reasons for doing so.

[CoteDAzur]

"Maybe because she doesn't speak the language, doesn't have family there, would find it too hot... all the reasons anyone might not want to live in a foreign country."

Would all of that not be trumped by living in a place where the majority agree with their worldview, where everyone's lifestyle accords with their own? Where nobody eats during Ramadan. Where women don't go around wearing mini skirts and tempting their husbands while they are obliged to cover up from head to toe. Where there is no alcohol and everyone lives as they are 'supposed to'. Wouldn't that be more pleasant than living in a place where you have family & speak the language but where your lifestyle is completely alien to that of the vast majority?

If one day the country I live in turns towards an Islamist state, where women are expected to hide under black curtains, can't drive, can't do anything without a male 'in charge of them', etc I would move. There would be no question about this, no doubt, none of that "Ooh will another country be too hot" etc. Anywhere would be better than that.

[CoteDAzur]

"legislating against the niqab, or indeed any form of women's dress is simply mirroring the situation in countries where covering is compulsory"

I disagree. There is a line that can be drawn in the sand about "That is not who we are, and we don't want that mentality in this country".

There is precedent - the state has already legislated on the subject of clothing. You can be a nudist in your home or on certain nudist beaches, for example, but you can't live in a city going about your business completely naked.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Cote - but in many ways her life isn't alien from the vast majority. Not drinking and clothing surely aren't enough to set you apart from the rest of humanity? If we go on the assumption that many niqab wearers in the UK are SAHMs, in many ways her life is exactly like many other SAHM's, looking after your children, doing the school run, housework, shopping, taking the children to the park.

As can be seen everyday on Mumsnet, people have different values on many different issues, why should one set of values mean that someone shouldn't consider themselves at home in a society?

[RussianBlu]

Just rocking up to say..... nice Muslamics bag!!!!!

[tethersend]

I don't think there are laws against nudity in the UK, Cote- rather, I think, depending on circumstances, you can be charged with a Public Order Offence. I know there is a Common Law offence of indecent exposure which can be applied to women, but the Statue Law of indecent exposure cannot.

I'm happy to be corrected on that, though.

But yes, I do take your point.

[CoteDAzur]

UK does have laws against public nudity and people have been jailed for this offense. I can't provide the link on this phone but you should be able to easily find the Wikipedia page that details the relevant laws.

[tethersend]

From Wiki:

In the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland nudity per se is not unlawful, but the circumstances surrounding particular episodes of nudity may create public order offences, according to a police spokesman in July 2013.

And

In England and Wales nudity is regulated by the Public Order Act, 1986, the Justices of the Peace Act, 1361, and the common law offence of indecent exposure

I don't mind telling you that I am now more confused than I was before

[isitme1]

Wow.
Wtf is yout problem op?
if they want to wear a burqa wtf does it have to do with you??
It is their choice. Im Muslim. My choice is not to wear one. I used to wear a headscarf and I dont now I know a loy of family who do and dont.

Shheesh. Get a life.

[CoteDAzur]

tether - I don't know which Wiki page you copied from, but this is the one I meant:

In the United Kingdom, public nudity is legal on some beaches.[16]

In England and Wales nudity is regulated by the Public Order Act, 1986, the Justices of the Peace Act, 1361, and the common law offence of indecent exposure.[17] Stephen Gough, who became known as the Naked Rambler, walked the length of Great Britain naked in 2003-2004. He tried to repeat his walk from 2006, but was repeatedly arrested and imprisoned, mostly in Scotland. As of 2013 he had spent six years in prison on several sentences, mainly for breach of the peace and also contempt of court (the law and definitions of offences differ between Scotland on the one hand and England and Wales), without having completed his walk.[18]

[tethersend]

My second quote is the same as yours, Cote- the first is from here

[Mumof5boys81]

I'm Muslim and I wear niqab and what may be thought of as a burqa by DM readers, but it's not. The word burqa describes the afghan burqa which I have never seen worn in the west, a coat like over-garment worn in Pakistan and Gujarat and in South Africa it describes those slip on jersey lace edged hijabs that small girls wear.

No-one forced me to wear it or even encouraged me, I'm from a non-Muslim family but have been Muslim since my early teens again completely of my own volition. I've been Muslim for more than half my life though so no longer consider myself as a convert or a new Muslim. The niqab was one of the things that initially attracted me to Islam though it's true at first I believed the media hype and that it was unnecessary and oppressive. I soon realised this wasn't the case though. I used to wear it when I could but when I married my first husband he banned me from wearing it, he wasn't keen on hijab either-yes he was Muslim but not as religious as he made out he was when we married. My now husband is very supportive of me wearing it but at first he wasn't, nobody in his family wears it and they have all jumped to the conclusion he forced me into it. The majority of Muslim women I know, wear the niqab. I would say around 70% of them are NOT married and their families often don't wear hijab let alone niqab. I also know women who have been disowned by their Muslim families for even wanting to wear the niqab but I have never met anyone forced into wearing it.

Covering the face does have a strong Islamic basis and up until about the 1930s it was the norm in most Muslim countries to cover the face in some way, in many of those countries non-Muslim women chose to cover their faces too even though it wasn't required of them in any way. Burqa-like garments were also traditionally worn by certain social classes in some non-Muslim countries too until the modern era, Korea is a notable example.

I have some sensory issues and am dyspraxic, I find the niqab somehow helps to filter out any excessive noise or visual stimuli. Before I used to wear it and during the years I didn't wear it due to not being 'allowed', I would start to feel extremely flustered and overwhelmed when out and about. I have quite a few friends who are the same way Xx

[Martorana]

Why do you choose to wear it, mumof5boys? And if you were mumof5girls what would you tell them about it?

[sashh]

welcome mum

I hope your post will be accepted for what it is, a woman making a choice about what to wear and her husband not forcing her.

And to me this is what is important, that you have a choice, and this is something this country should be proud of.

You also have a voice. I cannot tell me how angry I get that women who chose to wear certain clothes have their voices/opinions dismissed by other women because they put a piece of material on their head.

I have never worn a veil, but I have warm various hats / head coverings and they have not melted my brain, I'm sure other head coverings don't melt them either.

[tethersend]

I support women's right to wear hijab, niqab, burqa or any other form of religious dress; this does not mean that I agree with their reasons for doing so.

[Perfectlypurple]

How do you know their reasons?

[Martorana]

I can't think of a reason for a woman covering herself that isn't anti feminist.

As I have said before, women have a perfect right to choose to cover themselves, but they are making an anti feminist choice if they do so.