women wearing burqa, this riles me

[southeastastra]

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

crescentmoon - I fear that the liberty your friends have are the exception as opposed to the rule. Women in some countries didn't choose to have their driving licences taken from them. Girls in some countries don't choose to forego an education.
People trying to claim that Islamic women are treated as equals is just plain wrong.

RussianBlu - I'm not having any misunderstandings. Banning items of clothing probably wouldn't achieve anything. A system of protection needs to be put in place for women who wish to exercise freedoms without fear of repercussion. Whether it's marriage, clothing, employment, choice of partner etc.
It's no good telling people they shouldn't concern themselves with matters like this as it's none of their business. I'm against any kind of discrimination or oppression. Perhaps it's just easier turning a blind eye to social injustices.

Hi neil

I didn't mean that you had misunderstandings, I just meant people in general. Lots of people make assumptions and therefore know that they are right about things that they actually know nothing about, that's all.

I agree that it is very sad that people have to do things they don't want to do just because some bully is telling them they have to do it.

Like this, Secret, and this :) Thought you might find this interesting, as well.

Sorry for derail, folks.

I still want to know what the bag with the Muslamic writing said. I wonder if it was one of those plastic bags from those Muslamic Halal food shops.

I think it was this Zazzle bag. Sadly, I don't know how to write "We will not be riled" in Arabic, or I'd have altered it for OP.

Errol - I already acknowledged I'd got it wrong on full face veils and passport photos. Again, I stand corrected.

I'm not frightened by them or offended but I do feel sad that in this day women are still made to cover up like this I hope I'm not flamed for saying this it's just the way I feel

I'm sure there are plenty Westernised females who are 'made' to get dressed up or dress in tight revealing clothes when all they want to do is put on a pair of Hush Puppies and a comfy pair of drawstring trousers but you probably don't feel sorry for them when you see them.

I want to start a shop called muslamicbagsandothermuslamicmusings.co.uk/forrin

Who's making them wear that instead of their comfy outfit, Blu?
Will their whole community stop speaking to them for wearing baggies? D'you think the leaders of their church, local businesses and their lawgivers will instruct everyone to shun them for not wearing tight dresses? Are they at risk of physical violence because of the Hush Puppies?

I never said I feel sorry for fully covered women. I do feel sorry for anyone who must risk total disgrace if they want to express themselves in non-approved ways.

The business of honour vs. shame is weak in Northern European cultures, as you know. Our morals tend to be based on a sense of justice in the here & now: that which strikes us as unfair or unhelpful is seen as 'bad', to simplify a whole lot. We experience guilt when we're unfair: Islam sees guilt as something much lighter than shame. It is lighter, in that guilt can be assuaged by correcting our unjust actions - an apology, a repayment, a gift, time in prison, etc. Of course we do feel shame, especially as children when friends bully us, but on the whole we see it as inimical to our well-being; it's considered an unhelpful emotion.

Islam sees shame as a tool for control - I've just read some guidance for muslim parents & facilitators to check this; please do correct me if I'm wrong. The fear of shame is drummed into children from a young age. In modern Britain, this is considered abusive. Shame is, indeed, to be feared when it can mean the absolute removal of your support network and even your livelihood. I feel sorry for women, and other classes of people, who are controlled by this.

I'm quite sure I've written very clumsily about this complex issue - it's a whole dissertation when dealing with only one culture! But I hope I've at least managed to hint at why it seems to me so awful when women are shamed into distancing themselves from the society around them.

My point was that there are controlling men everywhere, its just isn't always as noticeable. It may be the case that in some areas females are shunned by family, businesses, mosque leaders etc but equally plenty don't cover/stop covering and they don't get shunned when they walk into a shop or whatever. Perhaps that kind of thing would happen in rural areas, though I have no proof of that, just an assumption. Anyway, there are loads of different cultures within Islam and actually I think its the culture and quite often backwards way of thinking that causes the problems much more than the true teachings of the religion.

I made a bag for your shop, Blu ...

Just seen your last ... Yeah, definitely the culture and backwards way of thinking! As with so many other things.

So if all the women who wear these veils decided they didn't want to wear them anymore, I take it they'd suffer no consequences?

I have yet to meet a woman who wears a veil who wears it 100% of the time outside her home. So actually they all do at some stage. As for 'consequences' why don't you ask?

I've also told this story many times.

I was taking a group of students to look at a uni, I remarked to one of the students that she looked different and asked if she had had her hair done. "No miss, I'm not wearing my headscarf"

Garlic - do you not accept or understand that for many women who wear the burqa it is a choice they've made. My own friend started wearing it a few years ago, she comes from an extremely westernised family. Her reasons for wearing it had absolutely nothing to do with controlling men, shame or abuse.

I used to have similar views to you. Until I actually spoke to one of the muslim women.

Really relieved to read Gamer and Garlic also have phobic-type issues with face-coverings.

Balaclavas, Bike helmets and Burkas give me problems too. The last time I alluded to it on MN I was told I was Islamaphobic. I think garlic might be right about it being an unease with cultural roots though

Interesting that the OP has not returned.

Interesting that the op never came back. Her reasons for not liking seeing women wearing coverings have nothing to do with oppression - with them carrying islamic bags!

Still amused by Islamic writing......

A side issue of there being a billion and one "niqab/burqa/hijab" debates here and elsewhere is that it absolutely does turn the bodies of women who wear it into public property.

Muslim women are seen as a problem that needs solving, rather than sentient human beings. Hence you have people expressing opinions that they wouldn't about any other form of clothing - wanting to rant at someone or outlaw what they are wearing is a very clear example that you don't see someone as being equal to you, because in all other circumstances this would be outrageous behaviour.

There is a significant portion of women who have stopped wearing the face veil, not because they are now "liberated", but because the abuse they got for wearing became too dangerous. Some women actually felt in fear of their lives.

No one is saying anyone has to like face veiling, the key issue is what you think should happen as a result of that dislike and why you think your dislike is more important and should therefore override the personal wishes of those who choose to cover their face and/or their hair.

I'm really giving up this time I appreciate your persistent welcome, crescent, although it must have been with gritted teeth sometimes!

I'm failing to make my points, which are about women's autonomy in a class sense rather than any individual woman being pressured by her individual family. They're also about cultural history, group psychology, and a discussion I would have liked - but have never managed to have, in years of trying - about the differences in feminism between cultures.

I certainly do not celebrate a woman who goes under the knife to perfect her face, fgs. That's not a genuine free choice, either.

And nobody liked my witty shopper design

"You can't implement freedom by banning people's choices"

Should people be free to choose and act out a world view that says women must be hidden away because seeing their faces incites men to have sexual thoughts? That is the question you need to answer, not just on a personal level but as a community.

France has answered this question with a "No" and has banned burqas.

Can I just say that I fully accept that many women make a free choice to cover themselves.

However- and I realize that this is a view many people disagree with- just because a choice is made by a woman that does not make it a feminist choice. A woman covering herself is doing something that however much she wants to do it and does it freely is inherently anti feminist. That's fine if that's what she wants to do, but it needs to be a fully informed choice.

(And I loved your bag, garlic)

"That a woman who veils her face is vulnerable and needs legislation whereas eg a woman who goes under the knife to perfect her face makes her own liberated choice. "

Funny enough, an Iranian girlfriend was telling me the other day about how 'perfecting the face' is a full-time obsession with Iranian women. Because the face is all they can show, eyebrows are perfectly sculpted, noses are surgically done, the whole caked in make-up at all times.

Also, because they are not allowed to excel in anything else, their beauty is all they've got. I have no idea if they are happy living like that, but it makes me

Gosh - it's oppression in my view, thanks to a simple comparison.
If I suggest legally restricting (not banning) the veil, I'm being unreasonable.
If I do not wear full burqa in Riyadh - among other places - I will be abused and arrested.
I deduce, therefore, that burqa is a cultural imposition whereas other styles of dress are not.
The fact that you won't be arrested here for wearing any outfit doesn't alter the existence of intense cultural pressure emanating from Islamic heartlands.
And I'm sure we'll continue this debate on some other thread sometime.