women wearing burqa, this riles me

[southeastastra]

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

OP are you having a good Saturday? It's just that you were being very goady on the private schools thread this morning and here you are starting another controversial thread.

Are you just trying to push the mumsnet buttons before you submit your thoughts to the Daily Mail?

By the way, please can you use a capital letter for the personal pronoun "I" and at the start of each sentence please as it's really irritating for us pedants when you don't!

Whilst I don't like the underlying reason as to why they're being worn which LRDTheFeminist has pointed out, I secretly would like to be able to wear one.

Nocomet - "I want to tell women wearing a niqab they are beautiful and it's wrong to hide from the world. I want to see their smiles (and their scowls).

Covering your faces just feels so isolating and absolutely wrong".

That's so weird. Would you say that to a group of girls wearing trousers about their legs?

That's the same sort of remark our lech of a neighbour used to give me every morning at the busstop on my way to school.

Women should have the freedom to wear whatever they want and not be judged.

I don't really think you can compare a leg to a face

"but they're not here they're holding bags with islamic writing

they're not just women they are proving a point which isn't cogent"

The OP also posted this- which, if one searches past the illiteracy, screams racism.

Can I wear one? If I don't feel like doing my hair or putting on make up? Could I wear one on a lazy day instead of slobby trackies?

I often see well-to-do ladies looking very chic and boho in a silk salwar kameez with a pashmina and saris are intensely beautiful items of clothing and I've worn them before. I'm not born of that culture.

Would the best thing be to completely de-mystify the burqa, hijab etc and for anyone of any culture to be able to buy one in the High St?

No but its telling someone what to wear, isn't it? Why is it anyone else's business? And it is a bit lechy and weird to say things like,"you're so pretty, why cover yourself up?

My understanding is that burqa / niqab wearing is a cultural thing rather than a requirement of Islam. The Koran requires women to dress modestly and some cultures interpret that in a much more oppressive way than others. I don't think such oppression should be supported in the UK. Many Muslim women in the UK and other countries don't wear them as it's not expected by their cultural background or interpretation of Islam. IMO it is perfectly fine to over rule archaic and oppressive practices even when they stem from devoutly held beliefs and the recent legislation on gay marriage is an example of that.

I do think there is pressure involved in some women wearing them. I personally dislike them - the coverings, not the wearers - and think they shouldn't be allowed in the UK. There have been instance, albeit rarely, when they have been used a disguise by terror suspects and other criminal suspects (male and female) to evade capture. I also feel it is unfair that they can be worn by Muslim women when they need a photo done for official purposes e.g. driving licence and in court usually. This doesn't offer a level playing field with those who don't wear them and can create security risks.

See, I think covering the face does limit communication. Quite drastically, in fact. I go round smiling at people, they smile back. If I want attention in a shop or something, my facial expression says so. If the assistant wants me to hang on a sec, her facial expression says so. If someone wants to warn me about a person trying to talk to me, their facial expression tells me. When someone's pleased to see me, their face shows it.

I can't "see past the niqab", crescent, that's the whole point of the damn thing

I also dislike the hidden / infered message behind some burqa / niqab wearing which is that not covering makes you a justified target for male attention.

Young girls wearing a niqab / burka isn't right IMO and can't be compared with wearing a first communion outfit - the latter is a one off for a start.

If modesty is the aim of niqab and headscarf wearers, I do wonder why so many of them wear so much (eye) make up... Mixed messages? Obviously with the burqa, esp if it's one with a grille thing, that's less of an issue.

they can be worn by Muslim women when they need a photo done for official purposes - Really?! A niqab?

They cannot wear full facial coverings in official photos.

IMO it is perfectly fine to over rule archaic and oppressive practices - Agreed. The one note of caution is that we must be careful not to replace one oppressive practice with another; there are balances to be considered, in the sense of benefits to society as a whole. I guess this is why full burqa is controversial - is it "just clothes", is it offensive to many, and is it harmful to wearers? Tricky.

Thank goodness for that, purple. Thanks.

No, you're right, full face coverings aren't allowed for passports and driving licences. I think that changed less than ten years ago though. But I think veils are allowed for Muslim women despite the very strict general photo criteria for passports e.g. no hats, bandanas etc. I find that odd.

So if all the women who wear these veils decided they didn't want to wear them anymore, I take it they'd suffer no consequences?

You are strange OP. What was the muslamic writing on their bags then? How very dare they?????

These threads always make me laugh, someone has Muslim and Islamic friends. What exactly is an Islamic friend? And someone else decides its totally wrong to cover up when outside.

Why don't you just find something else to stress about?

It's the fact that I may as well be on the phone to someone I can see right there, Crescent. I wave my hands about, too, I don't need my face blanked out to communicate expressively! I wonder how you'd feel if I were to turn my face away when speaking to you? Why do we bother helping autistic people to cope with facial contact, if it doesn't matter?

Good question, neil.

l would like someone to answer Neils question. It's a very good one. .

I'm interested in your comparison with ' helping people autistic people cope with facial contact'. My son has Autism and has received many services but none so far in ' coping with facial contact'

StuckInTheMiddle:'But I think veils are allowed for Muslim women despite the very strict general photo criteria ' rules [[https://www.gov.uk/photos-for-passports]] yes, they're allowed, but only if they don't obscure the face. What's odd about that? a religious headcovering is something that a person always wears, a beanie isn't. So in terms of identification, the woman will be more readily identifiable if she's the same in the picture and real life.

Total link fail - but it's easy enough to google. It's probably a good idea to take a couple of seconds to check regulations on this sort of thing rather than posting what you 'think' are the rules on this sort of thread.

Neil, I think that if all females who cover themselves, be it with a scarf or a full on burqa, were for some odd reason to decided that they now wanted to be really cool and down with Western Society and never cover themselves again there would be a totally mixed response.

Some would have no problems from other people at all, some would have some problems from their families and some would have major problems with their families. However, the ones who may encounter major problems from their families would be the ones who would not likely be allowed outside anyway, should a law ever be passed that no one is allowed in the streets wearing Muslamic clothing.

Yes, it is terrible that some girls/women are forced to wear it by some of their family members if they don't want to but bringing in a law banning the wearing of Islamic dress will actually just further alienate them.

It is also terrible that people endure all sorts of abuse within the home that we don't see. Unfortunately any number of laws wont do a lot to stop most of it.

Hmm, how strange that people can get totally worked up over a religion and have so many misunderstandings.

P.S I still want to know what the bag with the Muslamic writing said. I wonder if it was one of those plastic bags from those Muslamic Halal food shops.