women wearing burqa, this riles me

[southeastastra]

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

[fideline]

What I would like to see is a culture in which covering and modesty could be debated with both sides coming from a position of equality, if that's not a complete misnomer; and we are not there yet. Discrimination towards women who cover is rife in the UK, and I have no wish to contribute to it any further

Yes that is the difficulty, beautifully expressed.

[Nocomet]

tethers that is a brilliant post!
I couldn't begin to put it that eloquently.

Society is simply not at a point where we can have a mature discussion about these issues

[GarlicAprilShowers]

Tethers, a thousand thanks for expressing what I failed to! I kept waking up in the night, thinking of ways to better articulate my feelings without being as offensive as I was. You've done it :) ?

[MariaJenny]

Yes, good post of tether.
Also if these Muslim men find it so hard to control themselves with women around why not say the men get covered and do not go out without a female accompanying them and the women can wear what they like, given it is the men who apparently cannot control themselves if they see hair or an ankle?

[oohdaddypig]

Agree that tether's post sums it up beautifully.

The only disagreement I have with tether relates to her point about not being bothered. I don't - I can't - feel that way. When I see a fully veiled woman, I notice it straight away and I find it unsettling. Sinister. I'm baffled by it. I would love to understand the motives for doing this to oneself. I would love to meet these women and understand them but I don't even smile - not because I'm unfriendly but because I wouldn't know if my smile was reciprocated.

Conversely I'm not remotely bothered by the sight of anyone who covers their head. Or wears any other garment of loose clothing for religious purposes.

I guess for me the full veil yells 'I am segregating myself'. 'You can't see me'. Perhaps my reasoning is childish.

But for me it's not really anything to do with religion but a rather odd lifestyle choice. And this thread hasn't changed my views either.

[GarlicAprilShowers]

Yep, the face veil does bother me, but I'm going to try to see through it in future (metaphorically, obvs,) following this thread. You never see them round here anyway, but I'm hoping to move closer to civilisation soon. Time will tell whether a conscious change of feeling on my part alters anything about interactions (or, indeed, facilitates any.)

[IHaveAFifthSense]

I was about to post saying how nice it is that, while still disagreeing, you have all come back to explain your points without being offensive and even understand the counter arguments. Maria's post re "these Muslim men" ruined my nice feelings though. I guess no amount of MN thread debates will change some things, eh!

It has been an interesting conversation, to those of you who were able to express their views reasonably. Thank you.

[oohdaddypig]

Fifthsense - I think Maria's point, whilst very blunt, is a question that many of us share, who find veiling problematic.

It does seen desperately unfair to me. There are increasing number of couples where I live where the women is fully veiled apart from her eyes. And the man is not. I find that equally odd to the extent I look away. It honestly enrages me.

[MariaJenny]

Western men can control themselves without women being covered. Why is it so different with Muslim men and if they have that problem why not cover the men not the women? What is so different about Muslim men that they cannot control themselves unless women are covered up but other men can? Why not just reverse the covering? If you take the Koran it says men and women should cover up but it's been twisted and abused by men, not women, to control women.

The Koran could have been used as a tool for equality but it has been misused. I bet God weeps over it all.

[IHaveAFifthSense]

I understand that, however it has already been discussed a number of times up thread and many Muslim women have explained that the way that you perceive it to be is not the way that it is in Islam. To make the point in such an obtuse way even after it has been explained it just rude.

As I said, I can respect that some views will never change because people find it difficult to see past cultural differences, but I don't think it's necessary to keep forcing the same one-sided views over and over again.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Daddypig, your rage is based on your assumptions and preconceptions. I think people should challenge their preconceptions and assumptions, before passing judgement.

And I think that this thread has helped people to do this.

[ProfondoRosso]

I work in international student support and many of the women are Muslim. Quite a few of the Saudi women wear a full veil. Speaking to these women, because the majority are happy to chat about the importance of Islam in their lives and why they wear the veil, they tell me they don't welcome Western pity. They're intelligent, they're doing MSc's in subjects I know nothing about. They're confident, they're brave. Being told they can't wear a veil, as in French schools, for example, is not, to them, a helping hand towards liberation from the West but an infringement of personal values.

I know that this is not the case for a huge amount of women who ARE oppressed and lead lives we in the West should be thankful for not having to live. But you can't look at someone and think you know their story.

[oohdaddypig]

Profondo - why do these women choose to cover then? As they clearly are exerting choice.

I would like to add that I don't express western pity. More like bamboozlement. And fascination as to how they can eat. Or smile at each other. Or even not overheat. Recognise each other in the street. And not suffer horrendous vit D deficiency. I mean - why?!?!

Diane - you can roll out the tired "preconceptions" argument if you like but the very fact I am on this thread should demonstrate that I question this.

I guess what I'm looking for a female who chooses to cover in th UK, and manages to function both socially and in a work environment, to tell me why she does so. Then I might understand.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Daddy, there was a guest blog on MN recently from a Muslim woman who covered her face. Did you read it?

[ProfondoRosso]

Profondo - why do these women choose to cover then? As they clearly are exerting choice

You're right, Daddy, they are exerting choice. I don't know the exact ins and outs of why they choose to cover but, from what some of these ladies have told me, it's at least a visual signifier of their love for Allah. Part of the ritual of being Muslim, as is prayer at certain specific times or fasting. I would never presume to know a lot about Islam; I can only recall conversations I've shared with women who are practicing Muslims, from countries where Islam is a huge, defining part of life.

[CoteDAzur]

"Part of the ritual of being Muslim, as is prayer at certain specific times or fasting."

Sorry but covering the face is certainly not as inconvertible part of Islam as prayer and fasting. At best, its their unusual interpretation of Islam - i.e. it is a very small minority of practicing Muslim women who cover their faces.

[MariaJenny]

Covering is not part of Islam. It's part of the wrong interpretation of Islam. It is cultural just as marriage without any younger age limit in Saudi is cultural. It is cultural and it is wrong. However I would not have things like France. People love England because we let people be as silly as they like in what they wear within reason. I still don't get the right to walk down the high street with my chest showing whilst men can which is pretty unfair.

So let men and women cover up or strip off but let us all be able to say when we do and do not agree with that. The freedom of speech is very important particularly to allow people with different views to hear those views and try to convince others their views are wrong.

We certainly need to fight hard to ensure women retain the right to wear shorts and T shirt in all public streets in the UK whatever culture predominates in that area.

[ProfondoRosso]

As I said, the only real discourse I've had re: Islam is with these women, mostly Saudi, some Kuwaiti and some Omani, who all told me that wearing a cover of some kind was important to them. And, working with these ladies as part of my job, it's important that I demonstrate respect, hospitality and understanding.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I have been both disappointed and pleased that nobody has put forth a reason for young girls wearing hijab.
Tethers, there is one explanation I've come across - which is very simply that little girls want to dress like Mummy.

[oohdaddypig]

Errol - I find your statement wrong on so many levels.

Do you honestly believe that?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Daddypig is it really a surprise to you that little girls like to dress as their mothers?

[peacefuloptimist]

I was genuinely happy to see this thread dying especially on such a civil and peaceable note from both tethers and garlic. Then the bigots had to come and ruin it. They cant control themselves hmm. Thank god they have you with your lack of sexual assaults, sexual harassment, sexual discrimination and sexual abuse to 'civilise' them then. You should tell the government that all the laws protecting women in this country are obviously not needed because well western (did we really mean white there) men can 'control' themselves.

This is genuinely my last post because I can see the stirrers want to keep this thread alive and kicking to keep hurling abuse and bigotry at others. First point to those who say they are not convinced. How self important and up your self you are? Please dont flatter yourself. We dont need your approval. If all the world were to be against Islamic covering that wouldnt make me want to stop wearing it for one second. I LOVE HOW I DRESS I DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE! Muslim women are not doing it for your approval they are doing it to draw closer to God. Why do I need to convince you of anything? Its as pointless as trying to convince you to pray 5 times a day or fast in Ramadhan. We do it because its part of our religion and we benefit spiritually from following our religion. Its amazingly patronising and arrogant for you to assume that we have to justify our life choices to you or that we need debate so that you can convince us we are wrong? As if we dont hear your viewpoint enough as it is .

The only reason I engaged in this thread is because there is a serious risk to me, my family and friends that if this kind of bigotry and prejudice goes unchallenged that we are going to sleepwalk in to the dire situation of the muslims in France who are forced to give up aspects of their religion and are still not accepted in to mainstream society. (Cote I know you will try to challenge this but I have friends who live in France who are quintessentially French secularists but still struggle to overcome prejudice because of the colour of their skin. Your experience as a white, European living in a white European country are one thing but try being a black African or an Asian living in France and you will find your experiences will be very different). For my future, I need to gauge now whether I need to stop wasting my effort, time, money and emotional energy trying to integrate in to a society that will never accept me until I apostate from my faith. Luckily this thread has given me hope that there are still people out there who despite their personal opinion support the principles of freedom of expression, freedom of thought and freedom of religion. That is what I love about this country and what makes me proud to be a British Muslim.

Along the way we got in to some interesting debates and exchanged viewpoints about a range of topics from feminism, shame, patriarchy, history of women's rights etc. However I'm saddened that at the end of that some people still feel that we need to be converted to their view of thinking. Why is it so difficult to accept that people can make choices that are different to yours and still live a fulfilled and happy life? I see people dressed everyday in ways that I would NEVER choose to dress and that I secretly hate but you know what I genuinely never for one second think I wish I could change that person to dress more like me. Is that what you want a world where everyone dresses in the same manner as you do? What a dull and boring place it would be. Diversity is the spice of life. It makes humans so much more interesting that we have different cultures, customs, histories, views, ideas, values especially when we can share them without trying to out do or suppress eachother. You dont value modesty and that is fine for you. But understand that I do value it and that is fine for me. Almost every muslim has at one point memorised or recited this chapter from the Quran:

"Say, Oh Unbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. I shall never worship what you are worshipping. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine.' Holy Quran; Chapter 109

I will never give up my values or way of life to please or suit you but that doesnt mean we cant get along and live peacefully with one another with all our differences. That is in my opinion the best indicator of a civilised society.

[atthestrokeoftwelve]

Veiling up does not seem to civilise the menfolk though does it.Anyone who has visited an Islamic country or travelled in Turkey without a "chaperone" will understand the sexual harrasement that white western women are subjected to.
I have been offered a "quick fuck" no less than a dozen times in a week by random men in the street, hotel photographers, waiters, who seem to think that because I am white and female that I must be an easy lay.
I have to point out that I am in my 50s and always dress demurely in public areas abroad but that seems no barrier.

So much for the veil teaching your menfolk respect for women.

[MariaJenny]

The bottom line is it is still very sexist. Let the men cover and the women not (there is almost as much of God's law in the Koran saying so except that men have chosen deliberately to misinterpret it). It gets in the way. (I've done it in Iran etc). It is a right nuisance and it stops women doing things men can in the way men do and by the way I have the same views on things like restrictive Western clothing of women which makes it hard for them to see behind them or run or get on bikes.

However I would never stop them covering if they want except where there are really important reasons not to and I would never stop them expressing views seeking to persuade me it is fine they do just as in the UK (although not sadly in all countries) I am free to seek to persuade them there is no religious need to cover and that they have a duty to other women and their children not to cover. (And I know Muslims who don't cover up at all by the way, not head, not sleeves, nothing).

[Perfectlypurple]

Wow maria I can see what peaceful meant about being patronised. I'm sure she knows muslims who don't cover - as it's already been explain numerous times it is a choice that they make. Why should you tell them they have no religious need to cover? They can follow their religion in any way they want. When have you been approached by a muslim telling you what to wear?

I deal with non British Muslims on a regular basis at work. Usually people from Iraq but also other countries. Sometimes I get a couple come in, the wife is wearing a niqab and doesn't speak - the husband will
do all the talking. On other occasions I have a couple come in where the wife is uncovered and she does all the talking. My point is it's not one size fits all when it comes to religion. People can interpret it how they want.