To not want to be a Muslim

[Lostagain]

Ok so I am a Muslim, have 2 dd and married dh is a convert to Islam....
Anyway from a young age I have had a strong pull towards Christianity or aspects of it. I don't believe Jesus is the son of god, but do believe he will return again etc.
Is it a cultural thing? I was born and brought up in the uk, went to a cofe school for a few years then we went to a inner city which was full of Asians- I am Asian but it was horrible, I hated it. Despite this I still sang on the school choir, certain people were horrified at the time, but my mum supported me. In my teens i went a bit religion mad and started wearing a headscarf etc- didn't last long,
i love Christmas and Easter, I sing hymms when I'm washing up i've been to a few church's in my time, funerals weddings etc and to be honest it's so peaceful there.
I have been to mosques it was ok,actually I couldn't wait to get out of there....Maybe it's a language barrier
I haven't spoken to anyone about this as it is such a big thing -changed my name on mn but sometimes I just don't want to be a Muslim. I want to bring up my children with faith and I struggle to explain the Muslim faith.

I'm sure there is the odd sentence in the above which makes sense :)

By the way i consider all the examples you gave as immoral.
Remember you have to see it from the stronger party's point if vue which is the man with free will.
Not the exeptionally mature 9 (or 12) year old's view. I think you have a very romantic ( in the litterary sense) view of things.

Crescent this is sterile, you are being deliberately obtuse. Stop copy-pasting please.

harpy - Actually, crescent's last "copy/paste" re age at marriage was very relevant.

Very relevant to her point but still an antiquated view and irrelevant to the debate today.
THE WHOLE PLANET HAS MOVED ON from a normative point of view which frankly, is the only point that matters. We want to protect minorities. 9 year old children are minorities.
Am admittedly on the minimal side. Be a sufi if you like but don't impose your delusions on us.

Yes, the world has moved on. Is anyone saying we should be marrying off girls at age 9?

Certainly marriages were arranged between children at very young ages, however comsumating a marriage at the age of nine is a very different thing to getting married or engaged to be married at nine. Even so, just because child abuse happens all over the world doesn't make it right.

"every year at christmas we celebrate the birth of jesus when he was born to a young girl - some sources say 11, not 12 - who claimed the father wasnt her husband. see the strangeness of that? are we applying logic or our socio cultural norms to that story?"

Plenty of sources suggest Mary, mother of jesus was 14 years old, a young teen rather than a nine year old girl. Anyway no one had sex with Mary inorder to concieve Jesus.

"and why reduce a luminary like Lady Aisha (rah) to 'that 9 year old' when she lived until she was 64 years old and had so many achievements and accolades astonishing in the bedouin 7th century society? she wasnt a victim though you wish to make her so, she didn't fade into obscurity after her marriage, that was the society she was born into and that was a reality all over the world including Europe until relatively recently."

Being a victim of child abuse does not make someone weak. It is not a slight on Aisha's character the fact that she had sex at nine year old. How does it reduce Aisha to say that she was once a nine year old. Like any other victim of child abuse she has no reason to feel ashamed or dirty. Many survivors of child molestation achieve great things in life as adults.

Physiological sexual maturity happens earlier than in the past because girls are so much better fed. Even if you look at different races, the muslim girls in my son's class are very much little girls at nine years old. Children mature pychologcially later because they are given less responsiblity, but their bodies are adult at an earlier age.

Well it certainly seems that taqlid trumps ijtihad in crescent's and naila's posts.

Ijtihad happens all the time though? For every new development in society there has to be ijtihad, and in the post modern era of rapid change this is evident.

The point is we do not believe Muhammad was wrong for marrying Ayesha at that age and throughout the world at that time it was normal.

The world has changed but the principles still apply that a woman has to give her consent for marriage etc.

I know women who married at 13 or 14 and are now in their fourties. They don't feel like victims as they consented to their marriages.

One of them told me that before even if a man accidently brushed her hand she would jump away, and the thought of sex was scary to her, but after her marriage on her wedding night she felt at peace, as if Allah had put it in her heart that this is your husband who you will spend your life with and who will father your children.

As for protecting minorities, no one said 9 year olds at this time should get married.

Well i cant see ijtihad, certainly not from the arguments you put forth.
Its just blind faith which again is perfectly valid on a spiritual plane if you chose to believe so, but not acceptable from a normative point of vue.
Fgs! Wonen in some countries are arguing the right to drive these days, let alone the right not to be molested at an imoroper age.

I think the Mary issue is a red herring.

It is equally possible for BOTH religions to be wrong.

Anyway, I wanted to post to nailak

I am sure you have the noblest of intentions, but I think you are making yourself very vulnerable. Firstly, if anything should happen to your dh (I understand from your posts that you are a SAHM) you would be left destitute. You would not be entitled to inherit any property that is in his name, unless he has already made a watertight will. You would also not be entitled to his pension. You may be a selfless person prepared to help your fellow Muslim women, but you must realise that not everyone thinks like that, and the community may not be willing to support you.

Secondly, should your dh enter into a legal marriage with another woman, she would automatically receive all those rights denied you, and there would be nothing to stop her from kicking you out.

I don't think you should make yourself so vulnerable. Think hard about what would happen to you if your dh died.

Firstly,

I have explained he gets paid in to my bank account, he hasnt got anything on his name

secondly he hasnt made enough contributions to get full pension anyway.

thirdly he hasnt got any property. or assets.

If my Dh died, the all his money would be in my account!

You have to realise that rizq is in the hands of Allah, and is pre determined, so what ever is my destiny is what i recieve, and a piece of paper wont change that.

I would argue all women whatever age have a right not to be molested

and i dont get this whole thing about if my DH died I would be destitute? dont women have their own money and own earning capabilities?

nailak Of course women have their own earning capabilities. But you have given the impression from your posts that you don't work.

I think that you are vulnerable, but that's up to you. I hope you are able to find a good job should the need arise.

"You have to realise that rizq is in the hands of Allah, and is pre determined"

I have no idea what "rizq" means, but as far as I am concerned nothing is pre-determined.

I'm afraid I can relate to very little about your life going on what you have posted. I honestly cannot understand what it is that makes you believe that these ancient texts, containing some quite bizarre passages, are the absolute truth from god. I have tried to make sense of it, but in vain. How can a text be culturally specific on the one hand and yet valid for all time on the other? It makes no sense.

It is valid for all time. But you are taking one ruling out of context. A nine year old can get married if she is ready to and consents. In this time nine year olds aren't mature enough to consent. How is that confusing? Like I said I know women who got married young and consented, and were ready to marry at 13.

Rizq is sustenance or provision. One of Allahs names is al razzaq, or the all provider, everything we have comes from Him.

Like it was pointed out we live in a country which has a benefit system. I am planning to work at least part time, once my kids are all over 5 anyway. And have been studying to be qualified while I have been at home.

So I.still don't understand in what way I am vulnerable?

nor do i nailak.

Alexmum - with all due respect, I don't think you want to understand and whilst you are entitled to your own opinion, I would advise studying these 'ancient texts' in detail from an ethical and scientific perspective, before denouncing them in a mini-rant as bizarre.

Goodnight all x

Why do people still have dowries? What is the purpose of them?

Crescentmoon you make a marriage sound like an opportunity for taking a man for as much as you can. Is this how it really is or is it tongue in cheek?

I think this is possibly the kind of thing that Alexmum means when she says "I'm afraid I can relate to very little about your life going on what you have posted." I'm finding it difficult to relate to some things that have been posted too. It is not helpful to say that someone doesn't want to understand when they are trying their best to understand something which isn't making much sense to them. Possibly because of differences in culture or upbringing or something else.

I also don't think that Alexmum was having a mini-rant. Maybe more a frustrated moment where she is trying to make sense of what is being posted. I' admit that I've felt a bit that way with some posts.

a dowry is a gift a man gives to his wife on their wedding. It is specified in the marriage contract. What is so weird about that? It is so she has money to buy all the stuff she needs for her new home.

Well that's reassuring :)

I must admit that I thought dowries were a tradition and more a gift to the married couple or a way of paying a share for the wedding.