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To not want to be a Muslim

499 replies

Lostagain · 10/06/2012 22:40

Ok so I am a Muslim, have 2 dd and married dh is a convert to Islam....
Anyway from a young age I have had a strong pull towards Christianity or aspects of it. I don't believe Jesus is the son of god, but do believe he will return again etc.
Is it a cultural thing? I was born and brought up in the uk, went to a cofe school for a few years then we went to a inner city which was full of Asians- I am Asian but it was horrible, I hated it. Despite this I still sang on the school choir, certain people were horrified at the time, but my mum supported me. In my teens i went a bit religion mad and started wearing a headscarf etc- didn't last long,
i love Christmas and Easter, I sing hymms when I'm washing upHmm i've been to a few church's in my time, funerals weddings etc and to be honest it's so peaceful there.
I have been to mosques it was ok,actually I couldn't wait to get out of there....Maybe it's a language barrier
I haven't spoken to anyone about this as it is such a big thing -changed my name on mn but sometimes I just don't want to be a Muslim. I want to bring up my children with faith and I struggle to explain the Muslim faith.

I'm sure there is the odd sentence in the above which makes sense :)

OP posts:
nailak · 17/06/2012 23:13

Prophet Muhammad sas had 13 wives, he was in a monogamous relationship with is first wife, a 40 year old widow, 15 years older then him for 25 years, until her death. Out of his other wives, only one was a virgin.

Abu bakr was married to two previously married women.

Umar ibn kattab at least 3 of his wives were previously married

nailak · 17/06/2012 23:15

"Backbiting is certainly something we'd generally be better off without, and slander should certainly be illegal. I only question backbiting because some things need to be told."

Does the following not cover this?

^What are the situations in which gheebah (backbiting or talking about others in their absence) is permitted?.

Praise be to Allaah.
The scholars have stated that gheebah is permitted in certain situations:

1-

Complaining. It is permissible for the one who has been wronged to complain to the ruler or judge and others who have the authority or ability to settle the score with the one who wronged him.

2-

Seeking help to change evil and bring the sinner back to the right path, so he may say to the one who he hopes is able to do something: ?So and so is doing such and such; tell him not to do it.?

3-

Seeking advice or a fatwa, by saying to the mufti, ?So and so/my father/my brother has wronged me by doing such and such, does he have the right to do that? How can I solve this problem and ward off his harm from me??

4-

Warning the Muslims of someone?s evil, such as highlighting the weakness of some reporters or witnesses or authors. That also includes seeing someone buying faulty goods, or someone keeping company with one who is a thief or adulterer, or giving a female relative of his to such a man in marriage, and the like. You should tell them about that by way of sincere advice, not with the aim of causing harm and spreading mischief.

5-

If a person openly commits evil or follows bid?ah, such as drinking alcohol and seizing people?s wealth unlawfully, it is permissible to speak of what he is doing openly, but it is not permissible to speak against him any other way, unless it is for another reason.

6-

For identification, if someone is known by a nickname such as the dim-sighted one, or the blind man or the one-eyed or the lame one, it is permissible to identify him as such, but it is haraam to mention that by way of belittling him, and if it is possible to identify him in some other way, that is better.

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa?imah li?l-Ifta (26/20): Speaking about a person in his absence is permissible in certain situations as indicated by shar?i evidence, if there is a need for that, such as if someone consults you about arranging a marriage to him, or entering into a business partnership with him, or if someone complains to the authorities to put a stop to his wrongdoing. In that case there is nothing wrong with saying things about him that he may not like to be said, because there is an interest to be served by that. One of the scholars summed up in two lines of poetry the situations in which it is permissible to talk about a person in his absence, and said:

Criticizing is not gheebah in six (cases) ? complaining, identifying, warning,

When the person is committing evil openly, when advice is sought, and when one is asking for help in removing an evil.

End quote.

And Allaah knows best.^

sciencelover · 17/06/2012 23:21

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CoteDAzur · 18/06/2012 08:01

Many of Mohammad's marriages were politically motivated, to consolidate power and assure consensus, iirc (too lazy to look it up now) and in any case those tribes cared a great deal about virginity and Muslim men care a great deal about it now.

That wouldn't be the case if Mohammad said "Virginity doesn't matter" in one of his hadiths. Why didn't he, I wonder? It would have made such a difference in women's lives in the centuries that passed since then.

So no, I'm not buying it when you say premarital sex is forbidden for the welfare of children. It is, and has always been, to ensure untouched, virgin wife material Sad

Fourthdimensionallizard · 18/06/2012 10:04

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nailak · 18/06/2012 16:40

and like I said, it wasnt just Muhammad, it was the people around him, the most pious of people who are supposed to be our examples, the majority of them were in marriages with previously married women.

We are also told what to look for in marriage "A man marries a woman for four reasons: for her property, for her rank, for her beauty, and for her religion (and character). So marry the one who is best in the religion and character and prosper". As you can see this hadith is saying these are the reasons why people normally get married, what you should do is look for the one with the best religion and character. Virginity does not come in to it.

Also ther is the story of Muhammad sas wife Sawda "In a narration by Aisha (May Allah be Pleased with her), reported by Khawlah Bint Hakim Alsalmiah- Sawda?s companion in the migration to Abyssinia-: ?when Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)was looking for a wife to run the household and take care of Fatima al-Zahra?(his daughter), he was told to marry Aisha, but he refused at that time because of her young age?. So Khawla told him about Sawda Bint Zam?a. She was a conscious middle aged lady, full of faith, even if her youth was gone and she was not much beautiful.

As soon as the Prophet SAW heard of her he agreed to marry her.. she needed help and he needed someone to look after his daughter Fatima RA (who was around 10 years old at the time) and his household affairs. He needed someone known for her maturity and love and kindness as he tried to forget the loving support that Khadijah gave him for 25 years."

crescentmoon · 18/06/2012 17:52

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ReallyTired · 18/06/2012 22:28

I have read your link and I feel sickened.

Nine years old is dramatically before the age of sexual concent in any of the countries you have listed. Only perverts have sex with a nine year old pre pubscent girls.

I have read the link that you have given me (ie. the Wiki page). Basically Muhammad had sex with a young girl who had not yet started her periods. Her vignity was considered extremely important. According to the link the little girl still played with toys. Aisha was not sexually mature or even an adult.

nailak · 19/06/2012 00:01

yet by the age of 18 when Muhammad sas died, she was able to narrate hundreds of hadiths, including those about her intimate relations.

Aisha ra was not a normal girl. She was beyond her years.

crescentmoon · 19/06/2012 07:42

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crescentmoon · 19/06/2012 08:00

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crescentmoon · 19/06/2012 08:42

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Juule · 19/06/2012 09:44

Crescentmoon "theres a so many things i do or don't do in my life because of the sayings and actions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)."

But presumably condoning sexual intercourse with a 9yo wouldn't be one of them. Why not? and if you don't consider that Muhammed was correct with that from a 21st Century perspective why would you decide his other sayings and actions are a good guide for life today? Or do you choose to pick the bits that sit well with you and discard the rest as only applicable to the 6th century?

Fourthdimensionallizard · 19/06/2012 09:45

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nailak · 19/06/2012 10:03

Marriage is an individual thing . Different people are ready at different times. It is highly unlikely a nine year old would be ready in this day and age. And that there would be a father as pious as Abu bakr who.raised her.

Remember we are talking about 1400 years ago.

The concept of childhood we have now is a modern constructed one that exists due to the child labour laws and introduction of compulsory schooling.

It is sunnah to marry young. But it is fardh, obligatory, to not harm a girl and get her consent for marriage. So we have to take what marrying young means in context of our time accordance to our culture.

I tried to find out the age of the kings wives in 600ad but I couldn't find it. Maybe I am bad at research.

Cultural norms are not against the religion unless specified.

Juule · 19/06/2012 10:16

"So we have to take what marrying young means in context of our time accordance to our culture."

Does that apply to the whole of religious teachings regardless of the religion.
Are books such as the Quran and the Bible historical records of how ancient civilisations ordered their societies and formalised the laws they needed to function. Is most of what is contained within those books etc not a good guide for today's world and definitely not good when the relevance of various parts aren't up for questioning?

nailak · 19/06/2012 10:36

What is not up for questioning?

I disagree. I believe the laws in quran and hadith are for all time.

But marrying at nine is not a law.

The prophet sas rode a camel. But that doesn't make it a law. We have to take the issue in the cultural context.

In an age where children mature later, emotionally of course they will marry later. Life expectancy, compulsory education etc all come together to effect this.

It is sunnah to marry young. But what young means is subjective.

laptopwieldingharpy · 19/06/2012 10:46

13? 15? After the first period? When they look wamanly enough? After they have been schooled until the minimum legal age?
You will agree it is for civil laws to protect children against such subjective interpretations?

laptopwieldingharpy · 19/06/2012 10:49

Marrying a nine year old 1400 years ago is still immoral.
It is precisely because there is only one abu bakr in every generation, and only a handfull of prophets per millenia, that such a thing should not be the norm.
Imagine the faith of those little girls in the hands of simple souls.

Juule · 19/06/2012 10:56

Nobody is saying that marrying at 9yo is or was a law.

Just that it seems it was okay then and not okay now despite it being something that Muhammad did.

Crescentmoon says "theres a so many things i do or don't do in my life because of the sayings and actions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)."
How can she tell which are the sayings and actions to follow and which are not?
If things are to be taken in a cultural context who decides which things to drop if you are no longer in that 6th century culture?

laptopwieldingharpy · 19/06/2012 11:03

Juule precisly, who is to say now. It seems Islam is in a dead end.
Culturally moribund, normatively sterile.

nailak · 19/06/2012 11:29

There are two.sheres in Islam, the sphere of social interactions and the sphere of religious duties. Everything in the first one is halal unless specified haram. AMD everything in the second one is haram unless specified halal.

The hadiths which are actions and sayings of prophet Muhammad sas let us know what is halal and haram.

From his marriage to aisha ra, we can see that it is halal to marry a girl once she teachers puberty, from other hadiths we see the girl has to consent, be ready for marriage, etc.

And there was only one aisha ra. She is one of the greatest women of all time. Even though she was only 18 at the time of the prophets death, half of the religion comes from her, she was a scholar at the age of 11, she taught men about jurisprudence etc at that age. What child that age is capable of that now?

Islamically a person is an adult once they reach puberty. They have responsibilities of praying, paying zakaat etc as an adult does.

I don't believe man made laws are better then the laws of Allah.

I believe that if something will be harmful to that particular society and it is not against Islam to prevent it, then the amir of a country has that right.

But there I'd am example where umar ibn kattab ra was khalif and he saw women were demanding a lot of dowry and it was becoming hard for people to get married so he tried to limit the amount of dowry. But a woman in the audience stood up, and challenged him and quoted from Quran, so he changed his mind.

CoteDAzur · 19/06/2012 11:45

crescentmoon - I laughed when reading your list of marriage advice Grin

And remembered something my late grandmother used to say. You can add it to your list:

When your man gets a second spoon, break the first one.

(i.e. Don't let him get (or look) rich, so he won't stray (or appear affluent to other women)

crescentmoon · 19/06/2012 11:48

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laptopwieldingharpy · 19/06/2012 12:02

Crescent am not reducing Aisha to anything.
Am talking intrinsically about a 9 year old child be it her, her contemporary or today.
A normative system is based on the sum of particular situations to draw a norm for the whole group, at a given time.Not one ideal situation, hundreds of years ago becoming the acceptable moral benchmark.
Jurisprudence is organic as in "derived from living".How can anyone accept it stopped over 1000 years ago?

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