Can you "choose" to believe in God, if you just genuinely don't?

[aquestionwithnoanswer]

Namechanger as this is just a bit too personal.

Basically as the title says. I can't help it, I believe facts. I believe science and proof and things that I can "know."

I was raised in Christianity, can quote the Bible chapter and verse, educated about many religions, surrounded by people who have faith, but I cannot bring myself to believe in God - any God.

The thing is, I want to. For various reasons, I really want to believe in God.

Do you choose it? How can I "make" myself believe it? I certainly don't feel it. If I am honest, it all makes very little sense, it is illogical, it is not rational. My mum answers that with "that's why it's called faith!" but that is not really helpful.

How do you get there from here?

I think everybody has to choose it at some point. We are all equipped with the faculty of reason and the ability to understand that some things are not scientifically provable or disprovable. And reason can lead to faith too.

Juule in answer to your question, yes, usually I feel "led" in a way that I know is the right thing to do anyway. I meant more the timing and that sort of thing.

For a long time, maybe most of my life, I have known I would adopt. And then later I "knew" it would a special needs child. And I've sort of put it on the back burner and said "someday". But it has been on my mind, heavily so, more and more. I keep thinking "But..but 'someday' can't be now, not possibly! I have all these things to do, and we don't have enough money..."

And yet, someday is now. I know it is. I...I'm told it is. . And I know, this sounds unforgivably woo, but I know if we decide to do this thing (and I have, it's a done deal though DH hasn't come to terms yet :o ) I know the money will be there when it needs to be. And the time and the patience and the passports and whatever else.

Sorry, I know it's woooooo, but I didn't want to leave the question unanswered. :)

Of course it is ok to discuss the resurrection: people have done it for ages and will carry on doing it.
I won't go into answering the questions here, because it has all been done before much more effectively than I could. I said earlier that I would gladly send you the book about it, I repeat that here. It is Stephen Gaukroger's It makes sense and you can buy it for a fiver from Amazon. Or send me a postal address, I have a copy to give away.
I am not in the least offended by your honest search for the truth. We all have to go through our doubts and stand by those who are struggling.

I've only read the OP, but I've also struggled with this.

Now I've come to the conclusion (I think...as near as I'll get, probably!) that God just means good. So it's about doing the right thing, not about some arbitrary and antiquated rules someone made up centuries ago, when 'good' was a different concept almost in terms of how you behaved.

I tell my boys that God isn't a person up in the clouds, as far as I know - it's just a name for what is good and lovely and right. It's a representation, a personification of goodness.

I think that in itself is a force to be reckoned with and something worth believing in.

I do have moments when I feel spiritual, and as though 'magical' things happen, you know, like theywere designed to happen to you at that moment - maybe there is something in that - and I thank God all the time, genuinely, but I don't go to church and I don't like the bible (apart from sentimental reasons - brung up a Catholic) so when people believe in God, I wonder if they see it the same way as me, ie just believing in what is good.

My mother uses the church in her own way and looks to it for absolute rules she can follow, because she is scared without that - and it's led to a lot of upset, particularly as my sister is gay. Making people feel bad and rejected under the influence of the church is not what I would call 'good'.

Anyway I digress but HTH a bit.

OP. Have you thought about perhaps reading up on the Qur'an or the Torah which both are about the same god the bible is about. You may find more answers in them to enlighten you.

different endings though Novack . both the Qur'an and the Torah leave out Jesus, or don't recognise who he was and what he did, and why.

I'm not offended one bit, not in the slightest OP. Perhaps you have an instinctive (or taught?) fear about God - not unusual by any stretch - but, as flightty says, he is imo the personification of good. You are not condemned by God and if someone is offended by your questions and search then they're using God in a way that doesn't represent his true nature. imo.

Perhaps, as you've had no success irl, you could write out (post?) some of the questions that are, presumably, keeping you up at night? To get some air into them at least. It helps to get it out I think and maybe your distress is because you have not felt you could get it out, either because of people's reactions or your fear of offending. I hope I haven't inhibited you by saying I felt your beliefs - or the beliefs you posted - are 'outlandish, far-fetched': if so, I sincerely apologise. It wasn't personal.

Sometimes I get that 'what on earth am I believing here! this is bizarre' but a quick check through and I know why I believe what I do. It is contrary to the torrent that courses through our world but, tbf, a lot of that doesn't make much sense either.

The Qur'an does not leave out jesus from the bible as he is recognised as he is a prophet and descendant in the Abrahamic line.

Of course the Torah leaves out jesus but then if you go to Israel and speak with Jews who strictly follow their faith many of them will just laugh at you if you mention jesus as being anyone at all

Thank you for thinking of us CheerfulYank, life is sort of one-day-at-a-time here right now. You've left me curious about your parents who both believed in God and an afterlife but did not attend church or pray or talk about it. How did you come to believe? (Good luck with your adoption by the way!)

Mathanxiety - I really like your comment that reason can lead to faith also. How so?

Your post made me feel happy for you Jjkm. How lovely to feel even more solid in your beliefs when faced with alternative explanations. That must feel very good.

DutchOma your post sounds as though you also have had doubts at some point, do I take that correctly? It surprised me, as you sound so very, well, very sure of what you believe. I appreciate your offer, btw. I have just not sent details as I am ridiculously paranoid about typing out my personal contact info electronically. Ridiculous in 2012, I know. But I will look it up.

On the Qur'an and the Torah, I've actually read both, though admittedly a very long time ago. In fact, I'd say the Qur'an was a very significant part of the reason that I rejected religion in general. Though I absolutely could be wrong, I think both mention Jesus, but certainly not in the context that Christianity does.

Not at all offended or inhibited, Springy. This thread is so far out of my comfort zone, it is so strange to me. It's not just the things I'm writing, it's the way I'm really thinking deeply about what everyone is saying. Things I'd never have considered before.

This is definitely some of what is keeping me up at night. Maybe I will try a post with my strange questions. I'm already well "out there" beyond my comfort zone so why not I suppose?

Oh and apologies, I think it is the Talmud (not Torah) that has been argued to have references to Jesus, though that is also debated.

I'm sorry I didn't realise your loved one was so close to dying OP. I'm so sorry you are faced with this very sad situation - the pressure must be great, particularly if you feel the pressure to come up with the goods 'in time'?

Are you able to express to him that you are seeking? You said that he may not be impressed that you are discussing your struggle online but I'm not sure that would be the case. It may be that he can bring you comfort in your struggle, and will very probably take great solace that you are seeking.

(Every time I log on OP, you have only just posted! I'm not stalking you, promise. I am thinking of you though, both of you, very much.)

You could be right, Springy, about a taught fear of God. Though I've never consciously thought so, it's certainly possible with the way I was raised.

Very specifically, what's been keeping me up at night is, as best I can articulate it:

I live my life by my own moral compass. I have extremely high requirements of myself, by most people's standards. I do this, not because of any religion, but because it is really, really important to me. I have not always been this way. Many years ago I had a very bad experience, and afterwards the only positive thing I could take out of it was to "be the change you want to see in the world." And with everything in me, I try to do that.

I live the way I do for this life, because I want to improve this world. I never believed there was anything but. And though I am hard on myself, I ultimately believe I am a good and kind person, with strong morals/values. I try hard to do the "right thing" - or at least whatever I believe that to be - whether I like it or not.

So here I am. Someone who matters so much to me wants me to believe in God, that there is a "Heaven", so that we can see each other there again someday. Shouldn't that be easy?

Do the right thing - just lie and say that I do believe, to bring comfort? How can lying be right?
Do the right thing - I can't lie, so tell the truth and not deliver on something that could so easily bring comfort to someone I love? Am I cruel? Am I selfish?
Do the right thing - "Fake it" and pretend I believe, because if I've been right all along and God and an afterlife don't exist, then it's all a moot point?
Do the right thing - what is the right thing???

The best I could come up with is that the right thing was NOT to lie, to pretend, NOT to fail to deliver or do what's being asked, but to actually believe. Something I'd never thought I'd ever be trying to do. Undertake the greatest challenge I can think of - to argue with my own mind and logic and rationality.

Because if I can actually find a way TO believe, then it could be true, then I could give him great comfort, and I would really mean it, and even if it is totally and completely wrong - it doesn't hurt anyone, and it brings at least one person great peace!

Ha. Easier said than done.

Somewhere around yesterday morning I came full circle. Christian or not, I DO believe that I live a good and moral life. So, if there's a God, can't that be enough? I know that many religious practises are beyond me, I know that. Can it be enough to believe that there is something more, but not know what that is? I mean, nobody actually knows. Do I need to accept it all, in order to accept the existence of something? It's asking a lot more of me, to get my head around resurrection, walking on water, feeding masses, a pillar of salt, eating an apple changing the entire future of humanity, all of it...than it is to simply ask me to believe that there is a higher power. That's not to say that people that believe those things are wrong; just that it's a massive, massive leap from where I've been most of my life. Is it enough just to be listening, to be open, to be paying attention, to be welcoming if it should call? Is that enough, to get into his "heaven"?

WHY AM I CRYING?

He accepts the "agreement" we came to, why am I still tearing myself apart over this? I still want to have more to offer.

I am exhausted. Sorry for the rant.

Oh no we're not that far, Springy, at least I think not, didn't mean it to sound that way. Just that it's a bit of a rollercoaster right now, never know what each day is going to be like. But thank you anyway, for being so kind.

Am having chamomile tea and am slightly more calm. Not sure writing the late-night spinning thoughts out was good or bad, I don't usually get so emotional. Apologies again for the release of my random thoughts. I wonder if maybe I will sleep now.

I had a Catholic schooling athough I'm not Catholic and nor are my family. I was brought up with the bible and mass every Friday and holy day of obligation. In my early teens I started questioning God and religion through natural teenage inquisition, though I didn't find any answers to my questions either way, questions which seemed silly at the time, like why does God allow such painful suffering to people who haven't done anything wrong, like babies or people who devote their lives to living a holy life and doing good, like devoutly religious people? Such innocence.

I've had my fair share of crap in life: I've seen my mother and step-father die far too young, my sister has fought a rare cancer, I'm one step away from developing that same cancer. It's already in it's early development. Shit happens. This might sound silly but... I'm resigned to dying. I know I'm going to die. It's one of the things that unites us as human beings, that and the fact that we bleed red stuff and cry for similar reasons. I am going to die, and the thing that scares me most about dying is the people I'm going to leave behind, namely my children. They are too young to live without a mother and that cuts me up every time I think about it. The one thing that makes me less scared about dying is that I truly believe that when I die I will be with my mum again. It's an odd feeling. I'm a scientist by rationale, but my heart believes, and that's what faith is.

People can tell you you're silly for thinking x, y, and z but if you think it and believe it then it's not silly. I think if evolution was so brilliant that by now women would have evolved to have three pairs of arms to juggle everything we do at once! And the appendix would have ceased to exist as it's defunct and prone to exploding and stuff. And we would have evolved two different tongues; a diet tongue whereby anything sinful would immediately taste like bile, and a non diet tongue which is pretty much like what we have now. You get what I mean.

Faith is as personal as the person you fall in love with. You can't really explain it properly to someone who doesn't think the same as you. You could ask a dozen people what faith means to them and they would all give slightly differing answers. To me it's believing that this life is not all that there is, that there's something else, just something. I don't know what and I'm not going to pretend to be a theologian or a priest who pretends or professes to know the answers. I just feel in my heart that this isn't all there is and that when my soul leaves my body it will join those of my loved ones already departed in looking after those who haven't.

Craaaaaappp! I just typed out a huge post and lost it. I despise this iPad.

Anyway. MrsArchie' that was lovely and I'm sorry for all you're going through.

AQuestion I will launch into a shorter version of my lost epic post. :)

At some point my parents must have taught us that basics of Christianity because as a small child I knew that Christmas was Jesus' birthday and that He had died on a cross, which was vaguely related to Easter. And when our older relatives died, we were told they'd gone to Heaven. But we didn't pray and only went to church for weddings.

I read a lot as a kid and came across religious people in books. Just little references, like Anne of Green Gables saying bedtime prayers and things like that. And I just...I guess I just always knew it to be true. No one really told me, in fact my parents were a bit uncomfortable with it. When I was really little I remember them laughing and telling some friends that I talked to myself a lot. They were a bit stunned when I said that I was speaking to God.

When I was nine and at a new school I realized that some of my classmates got to leave school for an hour every Wednesday and walk to church for religious instruction. Being a fan of church, walking, and missing school, I asked if I could go to. My parents talked about it and told me that I'd been baptized Lutheran (I really had no idea) but that I could pick any church I wanted except Baptist. (I've gone on to meet many lovely baptists, but the ones who ran our town's church at the time were a deeply unpleasant bunch.) I said Lutheran sounded good and started going to class, getting confirmed when I was 14.

To this day, I am by far the most religious person in my family. When I was an adult my father told me that he prays a lot, but before that I had no idea. When my mother talks about her parents, who have died, it's clear she thinks they are still around somewhere, in some form, but I don't really know what else she thinks. My brother, as mentioned, is an atheist. He hates that I have religious belief, and even more so that my DH is devoutly Catholic. DH is a genius and in my brother's words "should know better."

So...I guess I don't really know where my belief came from. It just is and has been since I was tiny.

Is it enough just to be listening, to be open, to be paying attention, to be welcoming if it should call?

Yes it's enough. What more can you do??

I was thinking of asking you when the steel set in about God. If you have had a christian upbringing (as did I), something specific will have happened when the steel set in towards God, the resistance. it doesn't necessarily all happen in one tranche though. From what you say, by retaining the morality of christian beliefs, the steel that may have set in was soft, but steel nonethless? Perhaps underneath that is the bastard God who let you down, should have protected you? Had a moral duty to do so ffs..

Morality is of course necessary but imo is of itself a rigid taskmaster, head-driven: we are not naturally selfless. Also, where does it end? At what point does one protect oneself? It can also be fatally bound up with 'goodness'. Imo morality itself is not God but a fruit of God, backlit and empowered by a relationship with God - you can't really pull it off yourself. Morality is also heavily influenced by cultural norms: what is moral in one culture won't be moral in another. Morality appears to be deeply entwined with peoples' beliefs about God re middle class christian morality can be impossibly airtight I've found the hard way .

You had a christian upbringing from what you've said (as did I) and a moral code was stamped through us like rock. It can be very dry, morality. I am also absurdly moral if I'm not careful (amazing what is retained from a religious upbringing, how many rods to beat one's back... and other people's) but in that morality is a self-reliance, a 'goodness': I will be good even if God isn't - somebody's got to uphold a moral order here

You may have read more into your loved-one's request than was intended; it looks to be pulling on your moral code - your love, goodness and kindness - to an impossible degree: you can't possibly come up with these goods yourself and maybe this is one source of your distress, that your morality can't meet this? His request could also look like emotional/religious blackmail (though I doubt it is - or at least I hope it isn't).

Just chewing the cud with you here OP, discussion points, not meant to offend in any way.

NB: ffs is actually 'for flip's sake' of course! I'm good! I'm a christian!

AQ you seem to be so much harder on yourself than I think God is..
The trouble with 'being good' is that you can never be 'good enough' for God who is perfect. That sounds harsh, but think about it: if God was not perfect, nothing would be. Heaven wouldn't be worth anything, the whole thing would be totally worthless if we took our sin with us. Not that I am saying that you are not a 'good person', just that you are not 'perfect' Can you agree to that?
At the same time God wants to have a relationship with you. That can't happen without Jesus and His sacrifice for you, because Jesus was perfect and He paid the price. 'There was no other good enough to pay the price of sin.'

I know that this is hard to accept, we all would so much rather that we could 'get to heaven' in our own way.
Yes you are quite right, I have doubts on a regular basis, time and again I have to 'get back to basics'. I think there is probably not a Christian in the world that does not have those doubts, if they don't I don't think that they can be very intelligent, it's a massive thing to get your head round.
I'm still hopeful that you will be able to turn around and all of a sudden 'get it'.
You will have such a surprise

So, DutchOma, are you saying that believing in God isn't enough? That you have to believe in Jesus/resurrection etc. That being a good person wouldn't be enough for God even if you believed in God? That all the good people who believe in god/s are wasting their time if they don't know about or believe in Jesus?

It's hard isn't it? It's hard to think of God as perfectly good, perfectly just and having an abhorrence of sin. And to think of ourselves as too sinful in our own right to have that relationship with God
Still I believe that is the essence of it. What good would a God be who is not perfect? What good a 'heaven' if we took all our troubles and sin with us?
God has opened up heaven for us through Jesus who was perfect.
I think it was Springy who said something earlier about: this is the way God has done it and you might as well accept His way because it is a very good way.
I don't know what will happen to 'good' people who do not believe in Jesus. Or maybe never have heard of Him. I do believe in a righteous and just God who wants us to be in a relationship with Him. A relationship that is stronger than death and will carry over into eternal life.
And I also believe that we have only this life to make a decision as to what we want to do about God and Jesus. And that there will be a time when it is going to be too late to make that decision.
God wants everyone to come to Him, but He does not force us.

If it's not about being a good person, just what is it that god wants us to do? If one of my children ignored me and didn't acknowledge me I might be upset but I would never exclude them. I would still try to do my best for them if an opportunity arose to do so. If God is perfect wouldn't he do so much more for his 'children' even those who reject him? Or is he like the parent who goes off in a strop if their child doesn't want a relationship with them? In which case he wouldn't be perfection imo.
As for not forcing us into a relationship - it's a bit Hobson's choice if the alternative is to be outcast.

I think doubts are not necessarily about the brain but also the heart re you don't have to be intelligent to have doubts.

Also re the way God has chosen to do it (a pretty stunning way mind but people have a tendency to not see that - how much more is he supposed to do other than dying for us to show that he is totally serious and has given his all??)

eg if you're not married, you're not married; if you haven't run a marathon you haven't run a marathon. You may think about it, extensively; you may set up a relationship that is for all intents and purposes a marriage; you may train extensively and do endless practise runs: but if you haven't been through the wedding ceremony in the eyes of the law, you are not married in the eyes of the law; if you have not stood at that starting line and run through to the end, you have not done a marathon. You either accept what Jesus did or you don't; you either accept that this is the way God repaired the rift between us and God, or you don't. Being good doesn't cut it. It's great to be good, of course, but it doesn't cut it. He's a whole other being to us - perfect, for a start; never the twain without the bridge.

yy I know it's unpopular but it's simple and straightforward - isn't it? There may be problems with a kind of pride - 'of course I can do this on my own by being good/who is God to tell me what to do/I'll do it my way thanks/I don't care what God thinks anyway' (or, 'is he sulking because I won't do it his way?'). But this is the way he has arranged it - and imo he knows what he is doing - so the only thing to do is do it his way, surely? People may be put off because of the equivalent of 'socks and sandals', or the heavy cultural expectations that, imo, don't necessarily have anything to do with God (or vile religious history - again, nothing to do with God - actually, using God's name in vain). The deal is that when you accept and submit to Jesus as the bridge, the repaired relationship with God is characterised by God's spirit coming in to your spirit: a transaction. God's spirit is not wet or mooshy or floaty but full of power: God's love is powerful. It isn't a concept.

btw I'm not saying that eg being 'married' to all intents and purposes without the ceremony does not constitute a marriage, just that it is not a legal marriage in the eyes of the law. re not less than, just not legally married.

"yy I know it's unpopular "

Springy it's not that it's unpopular, it's that it doesn't make any sense. Why would god provide hoops to jump through to prove something to him if he is supposed to be able to see into your heart anyway and know you and all grudge/separation from god is in the past because of Jesus' sacrifice anyway (for all men, not just those who believe in him).

There seem to be so many contradictions depending on who you speak to. So that a belief in 'something more' as someone earlier put it is probably as good as it's going to get for some people. If there is 'something more' and if it is God will he reject those people? Why would he?

Good point and yes, I can see what you mean and how you would see it like that.

Just a technicality here: I don't see accepting Jesus as the bridge between God and (wo)man as 'jumping through hoops'. imo that is all there is - nothing else, just accept the road, if you like, the paid-for way to God. You don't even have to make any pronouncements or changes, particularly (imo changes will naturally happen - how could they not?).

Yes Jesus did it all and it covers the whole of (wo)mankind whether they utilise it or not. yep, that's true. It's the utilising though that has the power. i'm pushing the boat out here but: imo God doesn't love just for the sake of it, there is a practical implication re Jesus said at the start of his ministry, to proclaim who he was and why he was here, that he came to 'heal the broken-hearted, set the prisoner free' etc (Isaiah 61, Luke 4). imo God wants his spirit/love in the world because he wants to do stuff re set people free (from the myriad stuff people are bound in, one way or another), heal the broken-hearted, comfort those who mourn etc.... heal families, heartache, human trafficking, effects of abuse etc etc etc. imo he does that through us, his spirit in us. So I'm not all reconciled with God in order to have a lovely cosy time with him (though that too). he isn't inward looking imo - he loves the world and he doesn't stand by and go aww when people are being chewed up, he wants to do something about it. As would we if our children were suffering. Whether they love us or not. (Though ultimately I don't think he's fussy tbh, he'll use anybody who shows willing. as would we if our children were suffering.)

He can't use somebody who is seeing to them and theirs, generally moseying along enjoying the view, thinking about themselves (as we all do under various guises). I'm not saying that being guided by God's spirit means we'll be galloping over the third world doing Good (though we may). There is suffering all around and in my experience it is prayer that brings God's will into peoples' lives. I can't count the number of times I have seen God's power working in peoples' lives as a result of prayer; whether emotionally, practically, psychologically, physically. imo it is God's spirit in me - that is only there because I accepted the bridge he prepared; it has nothing to do with my merits if you like - that is prepared to do something about the hell on earth.

so yes, he's great and he's fabulous and gorgeous and loving and wise and wow; but he is also powerful. It's the power - to do - rather than the pontificating that I'm interested in. There's a job to do.

Anyway, I'm getting on my nerves now so I think I'd better shut UP.