Can you "choose" to believe in God, if you just genuinely don't?

[aquestionwithnoanswer]

Namechanger as this is just a bit too personal.

Basically as the title says. I can't help it, I believe facts. I believe science and proof and things that I can "know."

I was raised in Christianity, can quote the Bible chapter and verse, educated about many religions, surrounded by people who have faith, but I cannot bring myself to believe in God - any God.

The thing is, I want to. For various reasons, I really want to believe in God.

Do you choose it? How can I "make" myself believe it? I certainly don't feel it. If I am honest, it all makes very little sense, it is illogical, it is not rational. My mum answers that with "that's why it's called faith!" but that is not really helpful.

How do you get there from here?

God wants you close because He loves you.

Don't worry jj - I think we're all trying to put across something that is crucially important to us. something that is very hard to put into words.

OP, have you done the Alpha course? I'd recommend it and I'm fussy about that type of thing

As Springy has said, JJKM, don't worry. It's such a personal subject and so difficult to articulate ones thoughts, all is appreciated. This thread has been wonderfully eye opening. I can't seem to have a productive conversation about this irl. It's very off-putting, the whole thing where some people seem to want to put you into a box with no windows, this-is-how-it-is-and-don't-question-it-beyond-that. It's not how my mind works and I feel like there's no way I'll ever get there if I can't ask questions. A (humanist?) friend (?) just told me yesterday that it is "bordering on crazy" for me to be "wasting any emotional energy thinking about this silliness." That ended the conversation rather abruptly.

I've not done the Alpha course. I avoided it previously specifically because it is run by various Christian denominations and thought that, therefore, it couldn't be "objective", if that makes any sense. Perhaps it is something that I should reconsider someday. Curious as to whether you took it before or after your outlook shifted, Springy?

Finding my head spinning a lot in quiet moments, atm. Can't help but wonder if it is natural, or if it is because I am trying to get my head around something that is so vastly different to "normal me."

You are quite right to think that the Alpha course is not 'objective'. It is also true to say that it is run by various Christian organisations and the quality can vary. The really good ones encourage the asking of questions, but of course, the questions you want answering are so vast that it takes a life time to get them answered. And there are questions with no answer.
That of course does not mean you shouldn't ask them, you'll just have to accept that the answer may be different from what you expect or too difficult to understand.
There is a lot of trust involved, a 'leap of faith' and to come back to your original question: you will have to 'choose' to believe. You can make a choice informed by your own explorations, the input of others and the study of the Bible.

But in the end it depends on you. And rather that the feeling of being 'put in a box with ho windows' it should feel like you have been set free to be truly yourself, truly the person that God wants you to be, your deepest self made free to do the very best you can be.

Hum.. I've not been on an alpha course, but everything I've heard about them gives me the gut feeling it wouldn't be what you need. Of course, it probably depends on the character of whoever is running it, you might get lucky, but then again they do have an agenda. Perhaps its something to consider at some point way in the future when you're less vulnerable - after all, if God is as people think, it sort of shouldn't matter whether you found him now or later.

This stuff isn't 'silliness' to your beloved, so its not a waste of emotional energy for you to be exploring it.

Haven't read the whole thread.

However, I don't believe in an after "life", but I absolutely believe in an after existence and a before existence. We drink water that has been moving through a continuous cycle since long before the dinosaurs, everything is made of a common set of elements (I think of this as the 'Moby - we are all made of stars philosophy ).

I don't believe we have a 'sentient' afterlife, as I think thought is a product of a living brain. However, I think we all continue to be part of amazing, awe inspiring existence. That is enough for me, and I don't need a God to be in charge of it. However, I think there are many Christians who don't believe they go to live on a cloud and play a harp after death, so I don't think our ideas are that incompatible - just the bit about there being a being called God.

Grimma you mention an agenda to Alpha courses. If an agenda is to hope people come to know God and be set free in the way springy and DO have wonderfully described then why is that worrying? I like to be upfront about this stuff. Yes, Alpha courses are run by Christians, to help people who are seeking, in the hope they find that freedom. If there are other agendas to do with power, sexism, homophobia etc etc at play then the groups running them are not following the Christ they purport to serve imo. If the 'agenda' is to give somebody a chance at a fulfilled life and experience of a God of love then it can hardly be named as wrong.

It would be wrong, of course, to force this on anyone - that's why Alpha courses are not mandatory

Alpha courses consist of a set of DVDs - about 6, I think? - by a man called Nicky Gumbel. I like him, he is generally innocuous enough imo (though I did read someone on MN say they couldn't stand him - can't please everybody). He's an ex-barrister who imo puts across the tenets of the christian faith very well and clearly: it does what it says on the tin.

Unfortunately, I am not as confident of the discussion that traditionally takes place afterwards - to which you can stay, or not (I personally would like it if the Alpha DVDs were available independently too - are they?). As per usual, I didn't particularly see eye to eye with the discussion group . I'm there with the basics but not necessarily there with the working out of those basics.

You are under a lot of pressure OP. But here's the thing: it is often a crisis that gets us digging deep with this type of thing, so you are not alone in that. We generally have the tendency to mosey along with the tide unless something upsets the balance which gets us thinking/seeking. I know of only one couple who, after the birth of their twins, were so overjoyed that they had an overriding impulse to thank somebody/thing, which was the catalyst for their search. They are distinctly in the minority: the majority start mooching towards 'something else' because of some sorrow, pain or crisis.

madhair - I didn't say it was worrying; I just have a feeling it might not be exactly what AQ needs right now. I'm not criticising the fact there is an agenda - I understand why people who believe in Jesus think its wonderful and want to share it. Been there, done that, sincerely and with enthusiasm! Perhaps that's the root of my gut feelings - that people running these courses may be so keen to share that they may not be sensitive to what the person they're talking to really needs at that point.

Springy's suggestion of those DVDs but skip the discussion part might suit better.

Jjkm, I am sorry, I didn't intend to cause anyone else to be losing sleep over this! That's exactly when it gets me most, when I am trying to go to sleep. I lie there for hours with an argument going on in my head that I have now termed "yes, but...".

I did not know it was possible to get DVDs apart from the actual course, will check it out, that might be more suitable for me. It was me who suggested that the Alpha courses would not be objective. Agree with Grimma's point. I think whoever is running the course (the discussion afterward) is likely to be more focused on the point they are trying to share than the answers I am looking for. If that makes sense. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just that it might not be what I'm in search of right now. But, as with everything else, I could be wrong.

DutchOma your post encapsulates it very well. It does seem to come down to my original question about choice. The crux of the problem is exactly this "You can make a choice informed by your own explorations, the input of others and the study of the Bible." What if, based on your own explorations so far in life (including study of various world religions), the input of others, and the study of the Bible, you had previously come to the conclusion that you do not believe? I am thinking there has to be a way to turn that around if you want to. Maybe explore further? Maybe you can't argue with your own brain's conclusions, but I keep coming back to things like - at one point, everyone thought the world was flat.

When re-reading this thread, many people have had experiences that have caused them to connect, (or at least been the catalyst for it), on what seems to me to be an emotional level, with God, or "something more". Perhaps that emotional experience of God is what I am missing here. But if that is the case, I am really lost, because I don't know how to find it.

I know you're right, Springy, that painful circumstances drive many people to search. But the HOW they find eludes me.

Shameful confession: Last night I lay there "praying" for some kind of tiny contact or recognizable sign from anyone I'd ever known who'd passed away, so that I'd have my evidence and could then move forward. Then berated myself for it, thinking "If I were omnipotent, if I was all-powerful and held the grand scheme of things in my hands, would I really be bothered to prove myself to some angry, frustrated, confused woman who has never believed in me before?"

Sorry for another long post!

ah yes, it is very hard not to gush

You have been specific about wanting the facts OP (or the 'facts'...) and I think the responses on this thread have reflected where you're coming from; also sensitive to what you are facing. I wish the same could be said for christians in general (I'm sorry to be so 'down' on christians - I wish I weren't )

No matter. It's easy for me to say that of course the omnipotent, all-powerful is really bothered to prove himself to an angry, frustrated, confused woman who has never believed in him before. I totally believe he so is 'bothered' (plus he is a lot kinder and full of compassion about that woman...). But it's not me who is grappling with the believing part. though it was me at some stage, as I've already extensively said.

Perhaps we're all just-keep-swimming Dorys and you're Marlon hanging on the whales tongue, white at the gills (literally)... and she's splashing around calling, irritatingly joyfully, Just... Let... Goooo....

some pretty spiffing references here I must say. Can't get better than Finding Nemo for a good cultural reference about God, the meaning of life and the universe

Sorry to be so bouncy - hope not inappropriate. Been in chat for too long today

I keep coming back to the analogy of a train journey. Say, you want to go to Birmingham: you look up the times in the timetable, you go to the station at the appointed time, you ask the people on the platform whether this is the train to Birmingham, but eventually you will have to believe for yourself that this is the right train and get on it, or you will not get to Birmingham.

Your sleepless question, I think (sorry) is the wrong one. You were asking for a tiny sign of 'someone you knew who had passed away' when God had already given you the big sign of Jesus who passed away and came back from the dead.

It really does come back as to whether you can see the resurrection as a historical fact, doesn't it?

To me it is more logical that it happened than that it didn't, my emotions follow that belief.

Not inappropriate Springy. Plus, I love finding Nemo. :) I've found that "Just keep swimming" is a very useful phrase actually.

I take your point, DutchOma, that I'm looking for some tangible proof of fact, when I'm supposed to be making a leap of faith and trusting in what others say. I really do see what you are saying. The problem is, even though I want to, if I am honest, I just don't feel that way, at least not yet.

Maybe I do just need to listen to Dory's Just....let....go....

No, it's not trusting in what 'others' say. It is coming to the point where you find for yourself that the resurrection is an actual historical fact. What you 'feel' about that is immaterial. You need to 'believe' in the resurrection as you would 'believe' in the Battle of Waterloo: you weren't there, but you still know it happened.
Leave no stone unturned, no historical document un-examined to see that you are not committing intellectual suicide by accepting the resurrection as a historical fact.
You sid somewhere else that you found a lot of ways in which you could 'explain' the disappearance of Jesus' body. I can't. That's all there is to it.
If the resurrection did not happen Jesus would have been a liar, or a mad man. Do you find that easier to believe? I don't.

PS I am not really familiar with Finding Nemo but isn't it a story about a wayward little fish that needed rescue?
Bit like the lost sheep?

If the resurrection is central to it, is it ok to discuss it? I don't want to be at all disrespectful. Please forgive me if this is a blasphemous or horrible thing to say, I don't mean it to be. Just following the line of thought, if accepting the resurrection is a historical fact is central to believing in God.

You sid somewhere else that you found a lot of ways in which you could 'explain' the disappearance of Jesus' body. I can't. That's all there is to it.

Some alternative explanations:

• Jesus' body was moved and buried elsewhere/stolen (actually briefly suggested in Matthew where we are told about tomb being guarded by Roman soldiers, possibly the catalyst for the development of the Edict of Caesar?)
• Jesus was not in fact dead on the cross but simply unconscious, and when he awoke he was found/briefly seen, went into hiding/went elsewhere to live out his life due to his fear of persecution (People are incorrectly diagnosed as being dead even today, imo this is perhaps the most plausible of the commonly known theories)
• Witnesses who claimed to have seen the resurrected Jesus were having visions/hallucinations in their devastation (also plausible)

There are of course many alternative theories (drugged, etc.) but the above three are the answer to your question - ways that I can think of to explain the disappearance of the body, that seem more likely to me than someone physically coming back to life after death.

If the resurrection did not happen Jesus would have been a liar, or a mad man. Do you find that easier to believe? I don't.

Truthfully? Yes. I certainly don't want to, but if the question is simply what is easier to believe, then I'm afraid...

Scientifically, resurrection is, of course, impossible (re: second law of thermodynamics). So, for someone who is not Christian, almost anything is easier to believe, if that makes sense. I get that scientific impossibility is what makes it so miraculous to Christians, who believe that yes it has happened - once - which is why it is so special.

Again, not meaning to be at all disrespectful, just open discussion.

I've actually been actively trying to avoid thinking about the resurrection being central to belief in something more, because that is something I'd find really hard to wrap my head around. But maybe that's where it needs to go?

On a lighter note, I think Finding Nemo was more about the overprotective father who, while trying to find his abducted son with Dory's help, learns that his son can take care of himself a bit. But it's been a long time, so I could be off.

Woah, that was huge, sorry! Off to bed for me!

well yes it is about Marlon learning to let go of being overprotective.. but he is also a traumatised clown fish who saw his family wiped out and is therefore very anxious, which translates to being naturally anxious about his son, Nemo, the only survivor from his family; but he also just, well, needs to be in control of everything that happens. He doesn't believe that Dory is actually speaking 'whale' (because he doesn't understand 'whale' and can't trust anything he doesn't understand? Not drawing any pointed analogies here btw!) so doesn't know that the whale is saying 'it's time to get into position because I'm going to spew you out into Sydney harbour' (though he may not have been as specific). Because Marlon couldn't understand what the whale said he was terrified to let go, particularly as he didn't know where it was going to lead and could have meant the whale was cheating them and was, in fact, going to eat them. In the end, he had no choice but to let go. Not really.

I appreciate that my experience of getting together with God was an emotional - or, rather, relational - one. However, I think that the experience at the church porch was perhaps aided by the chit-chat - because I took my eye off the ball for a minute. Perhaps I was straining so hard to 'get it' that the tension created a block.

i realise I didn't answer your q about the Alpha course - i attended it well after I became a christian (research as much as anything: I wasn't going to recommend something I hadn't tasted myself). Because of the way I came to God I have never grappled with the intellectual side of things because the relationship came first. I find the explanations you have outlined completely outlandish, far-fetched... so i know how you feel about what I believe LOL!

Maybe someone can come along who will grapple with your queries but imo they are, as you say in your NN, unanswerable. There comes a time when one, I think, has to let go and let God do what he does. You're already talking to him, let him answer.

I do not want to jump into your conversation but I do find that there seems to be some misrepresentation of facts by some and especially with regards to evidence of resurrection. The actual biblical story of resurrection is so full of wholes that it makes it impossible to be taken seriously and it definitely could not be seen as an actual historical occurrence by any stretch of the imagination.

As for the Alpha course it seems to be no different to any other 12 setp type of program except rather than have the aim to keep someone away from a self abusive habit etc. it aims to bring them into a habit. I'm sure some will see that last statement as a little offensive but that in the cold light of day that is the point of the course. For church goers to take their friends along to that they want to converted to their religion and then they build up to an emotional stress weekend to convert and free the converts from their 'spiritual blindness'.

You can have faith in a god in the same way as any other superstition but of course if you are not superstitious to the number 13 then you will never be a triskaidekaphobic. If you want to buy into a religion then of course you need to be more a person with a mind that is more open to their suggestions but if you are not then of course the irrational beliefs of a religion will be evident to you for nothing more than what they are, irrational fears or beliefs.

Sure in times of stress you will sometimes want to think that the solution is out of your hands because we all can feel a little out of our depths at times and therefore people think that praying to a imaginary omnipotent thing will aid you but thats because we feel better if we feel we have handed over a problem to someone else to take of for us.

I would see your last para Novack as one of the perks of being a christian, not the reason I became or am a christian.

I agree that possibly the reason eg Alpha is not available independently is because churches want to fill their pews.. and I don't go along with that. imo God is more than capable of filling 'pews' and doesn't need clever - or not so clever - tactics to do it. I also agree that religion can be, and often is, used in the addictive process, using religion as the 'substance'.

Back to baby and bathwater though: just because people use God, or religion, to prop up whatever, doesn't mean God isn't God in all his majesty and greatness aside from that. You may not believe in God but from where I'm standing the OP has clearly stated she wants to. It is that that she and the posters are specifically addressing on this thread imo.

Me again, can't sleep.

Oh no Springy, not at all how I feel about what you believe! My last post was supposed to be discussion points, they are the most common theories that a lot of people believe. I am open to anything, but was only admitting to finding any theories, no matter how outlandish or far-fetched, easier to get my head around than accepting resurrection, though I am trying. It is, after all, saying that a person died, and then came back to life. It's not easy to come to terms with. Maybe it should be easy, I don't know.

I suppose you are right that I need to wait for an answer. I hope it comes. Soon.

I am sincerely sorry if I have offended anyone.

Hello. Just popping by to see how you and your loved one are doing.

I was thinking of you the other day because I was watching the miniseries of Stephen King's The Stand, which is quite terrible tbh. Well, certainly not as good as the book! It's really quite Christian at its essence, and it got me thinking about this thread.

Anne Lamott, who is an author whom I love, personally, though she seems a bit polarizing. She talks a lot about how crazy her love for Christ is. I can't find the exact quote, but she talks about how really insane it is that such a cynical person as herself believes so wholly in Jesus. She certainly never meant to.

I feel like that sometimes too. I think about the fact that I am so devoted to the ideas and teachings of Jesus, that I truly believe that Something listens when I call out. And it's like "Really ?! Well...huh.". I also certainly never meant to. I was raised by parents who believed in God and an afterlife, but never really talked about it; we certainly never prayed or went to church. (My brother is an atheist.)

I don't know what I'm trying to say with all this wittering on, really, just that people's spiritual paths are lifelong and ever changing. All you can really do is love your friend and be open to yourself.