Can you "choose" to believe in God, if you just genuinely don't?

[aquestionwithnoanswer]

Namechanger as this is just a bit too personal.

Basically as the title says. I can't help it, I believe facts. I believe science and proof and things that I can "know."

I was raised in Christianity, can quote the Bible chapter and verse, educated about many religions, surrounded by people who have faith, but I cannot bring myself to believe in God - any God.

The thing is, I want to. For various reasons, I really want to believe in God.

Do you choose it? How can I "make" myself believe it? I certainly don't feel it. If I am honest, it all makes very little sense, it is illogical, it is not rational. My mum answers that with "that's why it's called faith!" but that is not really helpful.

How do you get there from here?

HecateTrivia

"If I get to the end, close my eyes and that's that, well so what?"

This statement just completely nulls and voids all the rest of your post.

Your like a child who believes in the tooth fairy despite waking up and seeing your mum swap the tooth for the coin just because fairies are cute.

As far as the resurrection goes: do you really think it is logical that the disciples would have stood so firm in their faith and belief in the risen Christ that they were willing to die for it?
There are all sorts of possibilities of why the body was not there, but the only one that makes sense is the one that God raised him from the dead. Nothing else makes sense.
If Jesus had been nothing than a first century scoundrel the Romans gave what He deserved, do you really think He would be one of the most influential people 2000 years later?
Ask your loved one to talk about what is real for him, read what the Bible says about Jesus.

I like Stephen Gaukroger's book: It makes sense and will gladly send you a copy if you pm me an address.

Well, aquestion, under those circumstances, maybe it's ok to pretend to believe something if it'll comfort someone who's in extremis, and maybe the pretence will even bring you some comfort too. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

"There are all sorts of possibilities of why the body was not there, but the only one that makes sense is the one that God raised him from the dead. Nothing else makes sense."

Oh the irony

"Your like a child who believes in the tooth fairy despite waking up and seeing your mum swap the tooth for the coin just because fairies are cute."

But so what notfluffy? What possible effect does it have on you if it makes Hecate happy to believe in the tooth fairy god?

None whatsoever, but the OP is asking for opinions, I think it's helpful for her to see the full spectrum.

I disagree, notfluffy. It makes me happy. What more point does there need to be?

If I'm wrong, what can I do about it? It will be what it will be.

The whole point of my post is that what I choose to believe in this life is what carries me through it.

I fail to see how anything is null and void by stating that if I turn out to be wrong, it won't matter because I won't know anything about it.

And so what? It makes me happy, gives me comfort and it doesn't affect you in any way.

What I hate is people trying to diminish or take a source of comfort away by being rude, or sneering or dismissive, when it doesn't hurt or affect them at all. I think that is unnecessary.

But, you know, call me a child if you want to. It doesn't matter.

Back to the OP.

I get it that the person who is about to die genuinely wants an assurance that you will at least erm try to believe that there is a God, so that you and he will meet again.

I'm sorry you are faced with the death of someone close OP.

It may sound ridiculously simple but imo God is so vast and the sum of God so unfathomable that I don't think it's possible to 'believe' in the whole kit and kaboodle in one tranche. iiwy I would - as the initial leap, if you like - address God directly, either formally or informally, up to you, and say wtteo:

I want to believe in you because I want to see xx again and I know it is important to him that I at least try to find out if you're there or not. The fact is, I just don't believe in you: I can't, my science and reasoning is a million miles from accepting that there is such a thing as you. Even with all that though, I really would like to believe in you.

etc.

Or write it down? stream of consciousness stuff. I can't see you've got anything to lose tbh. God is either there or God isn't. And if God is worth having a relationship with then s/he will welcome and appreciate honest discussion.

imo.

True, springy. I missed the OPs further post and therefore the reason she was asking.

OP - If it matters so very much to him, could you find it in you to tell him what he needs to hear, whether you believe it or not?

Because isn't it about giving him comfort right now? He's dying, he's frightened, he needs to hear what's going to make him feel better right now. What's going to give him peace right now.

Fake it. Let him go, happy, peaceful, reassured.

I know, that's ethically dubious, but I can't help thinking that doesn't matter as much as giving comfort to someone who's dying.

You have a long time to wrestle with is there isn't there and reach your conclusion.

Actually Hectate, that's very similar to what he says. We have, over the years, had many respectful discussions about our different views. We both accept that we may very well be wrong in our beliefs. His faith is peaceful and loving and he thinks if he IS wrong, at least his error was one that brought him comfort and happiness. I like that.

I'd certainly like to make that choice right now, to wholeheartedly believe like that, but it's acting I guess, because if I am honest, I just don't feel that way. I'm curious though - you say you choose to believe - well, HOW? What I mean is, for example, I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow. It's possible that it won't, but I've seen it do so every day for several decades and have proof that it has done so daily for quite a long time. I have a basis for what I believe. But to choose to believe in something unseen, how do you start? I would dearly love to believe there is more, more time, the opportunity to reunite with loved ones, just more.

DutchOma, I'm afraid your last post is a perfect example of where we differ. I really try, but I can't possibly see the logic there. For me it's like A-B-C-D-Q-Z. I can think of so many possible explanations for the missing body that are more likely than resurrection. I can think of so many reasons why Jesus/the Bible would be influential 2000 years later. And I can easily think of many people (and groups of people) around the world who, not unlike the disciples, have demonstrated that they are so firm in what they believe that they are willing to die for it. And they've been wrong. That's my challenge I suppose. I can't reconcile the logic enough to push myself into belief.

Maybe that's the point? If you can't fight emotion with logic, then maybe the reverse is also true? As in, as much as I may emotionally wish to believe, I can't go against my own logic?

And I have this strange feeling, almost like foreboding that I am going to be devastated if I can't work out how to do this. I'm not even sure if it's for him or me.

Sorry a few xposts there.

Springy that really resonates with me. That sounds like me. I can do that.

I totally understand why "faking" it seems like a good idea. I thought I could just do that, tbh. But I struggle with it because I can't bring myself to lie to him. Especially when it is so important to him. I guess that sounds dumb right now. It feels like I'd be lying to him, iykwim.

I don't think it sounds dumb! It sounds like love tbh.

Aquestion - I'm so sorry you've got this awful situation to deal with, and may I say how much I admire your honesty and clear thinking.

I'd say, do something along the lines of what springydaffs suggested, and let your beloved know this. If the God he believes in exists, how could he not answer such a plea?

In truth (this thread demands it, I think) I say this as an athiest who made a plea to god when losing my own faith which was apparently unanswered - but I think this is all you can really do.

How? I have typed out so many different responses to that I can't explain it. I just do because I want to. Because not believing, or more accurately - the thought of there being nothing after death, is terrifying to me.

But it is a choice. It is always a choice. Because there is no evidence. The bible is not evidence. It's a book. Anyone can write a book. The afterlife cannot be entered, examined and tested. etc etc

It cannot be a fact, because a fact is something that can be proven - something that is verifiable. It cannot be something that is verifiable in the way that water can be shown to be wet, or fire can be shown to be hot. So it can only be something you believe, (or don't)

For me, it is entirely logical to believe. I have analysed it, considered all options and decided that I am happier thinking that death is not the end.

He is being unreasonable to expect you to believe. Surely if he believes so strongly it doesn't matter that you don't believe as he should know that you will meet again.

I don't think that you can make yourself believe but I think you can open yourself to that suggestion.

I am in a similar kind of situation, I want to believe for various reasons. I have also experienced a couple of religious revelations, the logical part of my brain explains these situations away, I am under stress and needing guidance so my brain is playing tricks on me. However the fact that my brain is doing this to me suggests that I might take comfort from turning to religion. Perhaps if I am open minded enough I may even develop a faith...

x-post, What is it he wants? You said that he needs you to believe? That he needs to know this isn't the end?

He's frightened. He's scared this is the end and there is nothing.

Does he want the truth, do you think? Or does he want to be held and told this isn't the end? if you feel you can't fake it, then could you talk honestly with him? Ask him to talk about his faith? his reasons? the comfort it has given him? try to focus on strengthening the belief he has always expressed?

Grimma I'm sorry that your plea went unanswered. I am going to try it, basically as Springy has said. At least I'll have tried.

You've really hit the nail on the head there Hectate. The thought of there being nothing after death, is terrifying. We have been talking honestly about it but it feels a bit like we're trying to convince me, when I don't think that I should be the focus right now, iykwim?

I think he believes he's going somewhere that, if I also believed, we could meet again someday. I may be misunderstanding, but I think perhaps the "principle" is that only those who believed may enter. Words cannot express how desperately I want that to be possible. I would live for that if I thought it were true.

Is the right thing to fake it? Because I am SO trying to convince myself, but it seems beyond my grasp to truly believe it. The idea of lying by pretending to believe something that is so important to him makes me feel ill. I'm not sure what's right and wrong here anymore.

Bonnie, I understand if it's too personal to say, but I am wondering what you mean by a religious revelation? This is the kind of thing I've really wondered about - does something happen to people that then allows them to rationalize that which they otherwise may not have believed possible?

I should try to sleep. I appreciate everyone's openness with me, thank you all.

Is it the right thing to fake it? Many will disagree with me, but I think yes.

He's dying. For whatever reason, this is worrying him at the end of his life. If lying to him comforts him and makes this time a tiny bit less scary for him - imo it's the loving thing to do.

Loving someone doesn't always mean being honest with them. Sometimes it means giving them what they need, even if what they need is a lie.

Again, just my opinion. You have to weigh it up and decide what you feel is right.

You also have to consider what you're going to do after he's gone. I told him the truth and he died feeling like X v I lied to him and he died feeling like Y

I'm sorry. This is a hard and painful situation. You have to find the right way through it for you.

AQuestionwithnoanswer. What I mean by revelation is a feeling of calmness, knowing that I'm being listened to and once I experienced something that was almost a vision. However as I said in my previous post the rational part of my brain puts these experiences down to stress, I need guidance at the moment and because I am struggling to muddle through
on my own I'm almost using God as a cop-out (that sounds awful ). My feeling is if I start visiting a church and open myself up to the idea of God then the real faith may follow.

Just like any relationship crescentmoon, if it's all about rules you lose interest, it's not a relationship. it's the relationship that comes first, the rest follows. eg relationships with partner, kids - we don't do stuff because we ought to but because we want to. There's an element of ought to too (which fluctuates over the years) but only because we're convinced it's the means to the end: in the main it's want to - otherwise it wouldn't be a relationship but rules and obligation. Rules have to be loosely held imo or they kill the relationship stone dead.

My story of how my relationship with God was ignited was pretty dramatic but not everyone's is - people come to God in many different ways, not always dramatic. C S Lewis' 'Surprised by Joy' details his time of intense searching and unbelief, the sudden revelation of God. C S Lewis was a great academic and intellectual (Oxford don, I think) and it was a tortured, though very real, journey.

My (atheist) take on life after death.

There isn't nothing after death. The particles and atoms which made you have been around for millions of years. You are made from atoms which were once part of stars, and have been parts of many other things on their way to you - possibly plants, animals, perhaps other humans even. All these atoms came together (briefly, in the scheme of things) to be you. That you are sentient, an individual being, is the wonder of life.

After we die, our atoms will disperse into the universe again and will come together with other atoms to form new things, and very possibly new living beings at some point. We are all part of a much larger system of nature and life. We do live on, as part of this mind-boggling cycle of life.

Death is part of the cycle of life. We die so that future generations can live. It's the way of things.

This view of the world give me enormous comfort. I take comfort from feeling that we are in fact all part of something bigger than us. Not the subject of a god or waiting to experience an afterlife, but in reality, here and now.

You should read In God We Doubt by John Humphreys. He talks about exactly this. And the conclusion he comes to is that sadly you can't.

I do believe in God (a creator, life force,or whatever you choose to call him/her)

I think mostly religon is utter rubbish. Created for people for their own ends.

I know that after death whatever kind of energy that makes a person a person is no longer in their physical body. Science says energy can neither be created nor destroyed so science tells me their HAS to be something else. I don't pretend to know what that is, but I know it is something.

I have tried to think of words to help the sorrow of your situation but I have found none. Other than to say it is crap and I am sorry x

QWNA Yes, you will be devastated if you can't find the answer and it will be for you and not for him. It won't even be because you 'might see each other again in a life hereafter'. It will be because you have a hunger in your heart for Jesus and all He can give you.

Don't feel guilty that you cannot give your loved one what he so would like to see. He will know in his heart that he will be with Jesus. That is his conviction and does not depend on you. There is no need to lie to him.
The only thing I can say is that God promises that He will be found by those who truly seek Him.
I repeat the offer of the book I mentioned earlier. It does make sense.