to wonder how Catholics can reconcile their faith with the Vatican's reaction to Ireland's abuse scandal?

[ChristinedePizan]

Recalling their envoy to Ireland can only be seen as an a tacit acceptance of paedophilia surely? Rape and torture of children is okay obviously as long as its carried out by men of the cloth

[basingstoke]

The catholic faith and the catholic church are indistinguishable. To separate them would be deeply uncatholic...

[wigglesrock]

I'm a Northern Irish Catholic, I abhor the criminal acts and subsequent criminal cover up, however as a previous poster said I pray (only when want something!) to God not the Vatican. I use condoms, I fully expect and want my daughters to use contraception. There are millions of Catholics who use contraception, there are millions of gay Catholics. Where I live people don't put money into the church collection any more, they put it into the Famine collections etc.

And on another point, it was brought up in another post last week, the African countries that are being hit the hardest by famine aren't "Catholic" countries, so I daresay what the Pope says about contraception isn't of much interest to them.

[Annunziata]

NFP is unreliable at best.

Using a condom, taking a pill, or having an abortion is far better than bringing a child into the world to suffer.

[lettinggo]

Don't let a very valid discussion about the struggle of catholics to reconcile what's happening in the church now with their continued participation in the church be derailed by a discussion about contraception. That's a completely different discussion.

[Martha85]

Mistake obviously is not a strong enough word. I am not trying to trivialise this. The point I was making is that Priests do sin, they are not perfect.

There is so much wrong with the Catholic Church today, which is why I do not attend my local parish. I attend a traditional mass at a church which holds true to catholic tradition. My priest would nevertell me that peadophilia can be overlooked.

[basingstoke]

You don't go to your parish church? And what do you mean by 'traditional'?

[Martha85]

No I don't. The mass in the old rite.

[Annunziata]

Is it a Latin mass?

The masses are changing closer to Latin by Advent.

[PamBeesly]

The priests I know say the would not break the seal of confession, therefore in my mind and reality, the are complicit in a cover up. The Vatican law supersedes any national law, no matter where in the world they are. Thats frightening.

[Sassybeast]

'Holds true to catholic tradition' - so child abuse is a recent addition then ?

[Martha85]

The Pope has stated infallibly that NFP may be used for grave reasons and condoms connot. NFP is more reliable than condoms.

However as a PP said this is not a discussion about contraception so I wil leave it at that. Feel free to start another thread to discuss contraception.

[Martha85]

Yes it is a Latin mass. Yes the mass changing at Advent is a step in the right direction.

[wigglesrock]

The priests I know (which admitedly is only about 4) break the confessional seal if a crime or threat of a crime being commited, or they should do.

[Martha85]

Child abuse has nothing to do with Catholic Tradition. Catholic Tradition is handed down from God. The abuse scandal is a human act. Teachers abuse children, Are you going to stop sending your children to school?

[PamBeesly]

wigglesock yes they should do is right but priests I know, not to one up you or anything :) and I know a lot, and know of a lot, and they speak quite publically, will not break the seal of confession, it goes against everything they believe in.

[Martha85]

Priests should never break the seal of the confessional.

[PamBeesly]

oh Martha for me child abuse has everything to do with the catholic tradition I know. I am all to aware that people from all sectors of life abuse children, but these people are goverened by the law of the land and don't have a huge organisation to cover it up for them. FWIW as a younger person I was devoutly catholic, now I morn for that time I'll never get back, I was innocent and ddin't know any better, now I do and I'm livis, I shake with anger when I think of the demons that walk in the long robes and ruin lives of innocents. The abuse scandal is indeed a human act, but the church is made up of humans.

[Annunziata]

I thought it was quite accepted that the confessional seal can be broken if the priest believes the confessor is a danger to the public.

[lettinggo]

Wigglesrock, I believe the Vatican has decreed that the sanctity of the confessional cannot be broken. A priest in the Phillipines was ex-communicated for reporting a crime confessed to him - this was quite recently. In Ireland since all the recent child abuse scandals, all suspected child abuse cases must be reported to the authorities (known as mandatory reporting). The Vatican has recently come out and said, basically, they don't care what the laws of the land are, canon law trumps the law of the land and priests are told they must not break the seal of the confessional. So the priests that you know would be ex-communicated if they reported a crime confessed to them.

[wigglesrock]

Yup annunziata you're right. I went to a Catholic school, we were very mouthy, this point was gone over and over again when we were arguing with the visiting priest in that way only 16 year olds can pick a fight.

[lettinggo]

www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=22234

Here's an article about that Filipino priest for anyone who's interested.

[PamBeesly]

Exactly what lettinggo said vis a vis the seal of confession

[DioneTheDiabolist]

I'm a Catholic and I know a lot of Catholics. All are absolutely disgusted by the child abuse that has gone on (I will not cheapen suffering by calling it scandal). All would be more than happy to see priests in court and prison over it. Not one person I know thinks that rape and torture of children is OK, no matter who does it OP. But my faith and my religion is much bigger than the paedophiles in the hierarchy. It's mine and I'm not giving it up because of some sickos. I'm not giving it up because some in the establishment covered up for them. It's mine and their crimes and their sins can't have it off me.

You may not agree with me OP, but I don't give a fuck, because what you think is not going to make me give up my faith and religion either.

[chipmonkey]

I haven't practised catholicism for a very long time and am probably best described as agnostic. But I can see how some Catholics might feel that The Church, which to them has been handed from Christ to St Peter and and onward, has little to do with the crimes of some priests and the inaction of some bishops.
For me personally there was always just too much separation between the poverty and humility of Jesus and the riches and dogma of the Vatican so even if I did believe in the Bible, I think I would have to have chosen a different religion.