to wonder how Catholics can reconcile their faith with the Vatican's reaction to Ireland's abuse scandal?

[ChristinedePizan]

Recalling their envoy to Ireland can only be seen as an a tacit acceptance of paedophilia surely? Rape and torture of children is okay obviously as long as its carried out by men of the cloth

[Marjoriew]

For every person who stands up for the Catholic Church, there will be 10 of us who will be there to recount what they did to us.
There will be our children, our grandchildren and future generations who will not allow the Catholic Church to forget the harm they have caused.

[izzywhizzyletsgetbusy]

And there will also be many, many, people like myself who have heard your stories and wept for your pain, and who will be proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with you Marjorie.

Your suffering will never be forgotten or forgiven on this earth.

[CurrySpice]

Don't worry Marjorie, there are many many people who will speak out with you. Me included.

This thread has reminded me why I am glad I didn't send my DDs to the local RC school even though I often curse my choice as it's a 2 minute walk from home and I could lie in bed and let the kids walk there instead of driving them to secular school miles away

[ChristinedePizan]

Oh Marjorie :( :( :( I have no words except to say how sorry I am for your suffering

[Aislingorla]

Same feeling as the previous posters Marjorie.
You are a brave surviver, by the sounds of things.
I am reading Colm O Gorman's 'Beyond Belief' at the moment. Harrowing and then amazing .(what he achieved)

[WineAndPizza]

"Anyone who believes that an allegedly celibate geriatric ex-Nazi dressed in a frock is God's Vicar on Earth will have no problem whatsoever aligning themselves with the Vatican and will continue to turn a blind eye to all of the ills that Roman Catholicism has caused, and persists in causing, to the world"

So Izzy in your view every single Catholic in the world supports this abuse?

This was a very small minority of priests in the same way that a small minority of teachers and social workers are paedophiles. It was handled extremely badly, however the Vatican has endeavoured to correct this and has met with several of the victims to apologise personally. This is not going far enough and is an ongoing process.

However Catholics are not an evil, pro-abuse set of idiots. There are millions of Catholics across the globe and reducing them all to the same thing is absolutely ignorant.

[Marjoriew]

In response to the cruel and inhumane treatment meted out to vulnerable children in care, the Bishop of Aberdeen, Mario Conti, stated after the trial and conviction of a nun in Scotland - that such treatment was the order of the day in respect of discipline.
The Bishop of Aberdeen was a young curate when I was in care and I saw him on a daily basis. It was the custom for the local clergy to come to the convent and be fed there. Mario Conti knew exactly what went on there. Neither was he averse to eating the food supplied for us children. They filled their fat bellies with chicken while we ate the boiled up giblets. They ate our food while we ate the grass in the play yard, we were so hungry.
I hope that one day, they all burn in the same hell they used to terrify us with as children.

[PamBeesly]

Marjorie, they will burn, that I'm sure off.

[Sassybeast]

'If' the vatican was genuinely concerned about the victims, they would order that the details of ALL priests and nuns involved in torture and abuse would be handed over to the police. They damn well know who they are - they've spent long enough shielding them. And if 'ordinary' catholics really gave a damn about the victims, they would speak up in support of such action from the vatican. Will that happen? Damn well won't.

[Marjoriew]

In their respective diocese, priests who were known paedophiles, were moved from parish to parish.
They should have been handed over to the police after the initial discovery of their activities.
As publicity widened and the extent of abuse became known, they were moved out of the country.

[SirGin]

The vatican told Irish priests to disregard the governments rules for reporting abuse, i think they dismissed the document as being purly for study.

I think the people who covered it up and moved abusive priests around should be locked up in very dark prisons

[Marjoriew]

Here, as in Ireland, Church and State were intertwined. Local police forces here in the UK were fully aware of what went on the homes. I spoke to several retired/now deceased serving policemen at the time and they confirmed that they were fully aware of what was going on. They had instructions to return all children who had absconded to be returned immediately to the nuns.
On one occasion, I absconded with another girl. She got frightened and went back. I remained at large and as it was getting dark, I was attacked and raped by a stranger. I was returned to the home where I was placed in the mortuary. I was given no treatment nor was I seen by a health professional. I was 10. As children got older, they would be sent to the local psychiatric hospital and given ECT [ electro-convulsive therapy. It was supposedly to 'cure' the evil in us.

[rhetorician]

Marjorie definitely echo what others have said about the dreadful things that were done to you

curryspice - I think maybe that I didn't put the point very well - I think a lot of older people feel very vulnerable precisely because they kind of knew - my DP's mother lived near Artane (notorious boys' home) and got very defensive in response to a recent radio phone-in where former inmates (I choose the word advisedly) detailed the abuses inflicted on them and the damage this has wreaked on their (and their families' lives) - they used to walk through the grounds, apparently and all looked lovely...I find it hard to believe that they didn't know, but what I meant was that there was certainly a climate that encouraged denial, and silence, as others have explained so eloquently and painfully on here.

I always try and remember this history when, as one does, I see one of those broken, shambolic heavy drinking men in their 60s and try to remember that I cannot even start to imagine what it takes to survive.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

CristinedePizan I have never told you or anyone else here to "fuck off".
Izzy, it would be very difficult for me to "once again attempt to defend the indefensible practices of the Church of Rome." as I have not tried to defend them at all, not even one time. As you say they are indefensible.
Try reading actual posts ladies, as opposed to making stuff up.

What I did say was that this is my church and my faith and I'm not giving it up because some members committed acts of such evil. Some members, not all. Many members worked hard to make people's lives better, many still do.

[ChristinedePizan]

Sorry, you did say you didn't give a fuck what I thought, rather than telling me to fuck off. TBH I think the sentiment is pretty much the same but I'm happy to acknowledge that I paraphrased what you said.

[edam]

One of my mother's dearest friends is an RC priest. Who is converting to Anglicanism in protest at not only the abuse but the cover-up. Wish more people were as brave as him. How anyone can remain in the RC church when abuse was so widespread, abusers were protected and moved around to find fresh victims - and those victims were threatened, browbeaten and bullied - is beyond me.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

The sentiment is not the same. You are entitled to think your thoughts and you are entitled to come on here and express them. I was not telling you to go away, I was pointing out that your thoughts have no bearing on my faith.

[izzywhizzyletsgetbusy]

Precisely, Wine.

In my view, any professed Catholic who doesn't speak up or otherwise voice their concern at the child abuse, rape, and torture, carried out by their annointed male and female clergy condones, and therefore supports, its continuance.

When their transgressions became too great to be contained locally, many of the Catholic clergy who perpetrated abuses such as that experienced by Marjorie were redeployed with the express knowledge, consent. and connivance of the Vatican, to more distant parishes and to Third World countries where their abhorrent predilictiions and practises continue to this day.

It is also my view that any individual who is unable to separate their personal faith and belief in a monotheistic God/Supreme Being from the dogma and doctrine of man-made, organised, religion, is either ignorant, misguided, or has been brainwashed to an extent that no debriefing will alleviate their condition.

As has been intimated here in what seems to be almost a ghostly echo of events surrounding the Holocaust, 'people knew'; and if the people 'who knew' of abuse carried out by their clergy were also of the Catholic persuasion and failed to act on behalf of defenceless children then, by the tenets of their own religion, they are destined to spend a few aeons in hell or in the purgatory dreamed up by long-deceased (and in many cases far from celibate) men in frocks to obtain pecuniary benefit for their church.

If, in what some would term poetic justice for my blasphemy, I end up on a spit between Hitler and Stalin you can be sure that I will attempt to disabuse them of their perverted ideals while doing my utmost to kick a few fiery coals in the direction of Majorie's tormentors.

As for your assertion that my faith and my religion is much bigger than the paedophiles in the hierarchy. It's mine and I'm not giving it up because of some sickos. I'm not giving it up because some in the establishment covered up for them. It's mine and their crimes and their sins can't have it off me I would suggest you think again Dione because you are in denial that 'your' Church, and your attitude to it, is an affront to common decency.

[edam]

I think there is potentially some validity in Dione's point but only if those who justify their participation in those terms DO something about it. Do something to right the wrong, to hold the abusers and those who enabled and protected them to account, to make sure they face the full weight of the secular law, to makes sure it never happens again and to do everything in the power of that organisation to give the victims redress.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Izzy, do you know any Catholics who have not spoken against or not expressed their concern regarding clerical child abuse? I know loads of Catholics and all have done so.
Do you really believe that all members of established churches are either ignorant, misguided, or has been brainwashed to an extent that no debriefing will alleviate their condition?

I can assure you that I am not at all in denial. As I have said, I am aware of what some members of my church did. I am also aware of what many members of my church have done and continue to do. Should I abandon my faith and deny my experience and that of many others just because you think I should? Because some of the near on one billion members were cruel, nasty people who damaged others?
I can also assure you that I didn't know, nor did I even suspect. The breaking of the news of clerical child abuse and cover ups came as a complete shock to me and many more Catholics.
And yes, my faith and my religion are much, much bigger than the abusers and those who covered up their crime. It is the religion of Mother Theresa, Fr. Shay Cullen, Bishop Oscar Romero, St Thomas More and many many more. It is the religion of many people, good people, evil people, can't be arsed people, half arsed people and fundamentalists.

Can I also add that in my view any individual who is unable to see members of churches for the individuals they most certainly are, is ignorant, misguided and bigotted.

[Stokes]

First post so please be kind.

I was raised Catholic in Ireland (I'm 27). I've left the church now as I'm an atheist, but I like to think that I would have left by now even if I'd kept my faith. The way I see it, the Catholic religion has many positives going for it, can give huge support and comfort. But the Catholic Church as an organisation has been proven to be, frankly, evil. How people who consider themselves christians can continue to support the church by putting a few quid in the collection plate, getting married in the church and getting their children baptised is beyond me. If the stories of abuse and cover up won't persuade people to leave the church, then what will it take?? Where is the point where you say enough is enough and convert to another christian faith or simply practice your faith yourself at home.

[Marjoriew]

Many practising Catholics 'know' about the abuse, because either they have read about it in the media, or word of mouth from someone who knows someone who knows someone else who was. Hearing it or reading about it from someone who has personal experience isn't going to change one iota for many Catholics. Partly because they don't want to believe it, partly because they are too ashamed to believe that a sect they have aligned themselves to is capable of such horrors, and, of course, mainly because the Catholic church have been able to cover it up themselves for decades that even they are arrogant enough to believe that it just didn't happen.
Over the decades, I have different forms of counselling - the last counsellor was so traumatised that she threw up all over me. I don't bother any more. I'm fully aware none of the abuse was my fault - in fact as a very young girl, I was aware that what was happening was wrong, unlike my contemporaries who thought it was just the way things were. Probably that's how I knew every brick of the crypt walls.
/and I still think of the little girl who was in my dormitory who had polio and was sent back into the water to get her caliper which had come loose at the beach and drowned trying to retrieve it, and the boys' dorm that went on fire and one of the nuns sent him back to get his shoes and he died in the fire.
I've heard all the crap about these people being individuals - they were, but they were protected by church and state and that is the worst crime.

[ChristinedePizan]

Dione - there are many people who believe Mother Teresa prioritised her proselytising above the wellbeing of the people who she was supposed to be helping and it is also a fact that she accepted donations from some extremely questionable sources. Which kind of underpins the point about not questioning.

If it is all about a few bad apples which is the way that you're portraying it, how on earth was Marjorie treated like she was? What about the Magdelene Asylums? There is a long history of appalling child abuse and lots and lots of people knew and did nothing

[sunnydelight]

Well I was raised as an Irish Catholic and was adopted from a Catholic "home for unmarried mothers" in the 60s and although I haven't lived in Ireland for 22 years now the recent scandals have directly led to my renouncing my Catholicism. As any Catholic will know that was a very difficult decision but I cannot in all conscience align myself with a religion that has, knowingly, done so much wrong. I now define myself, and my children, as Christian.

Faith is such a personal issue and mine has always been of the quiet sort, but so much EVIL was done in the name of the Catholic church it breaks my heart. At 48 I am old enough to have seen the pre-Celtic Tiger Ireland; I know the power the church had (especially in rural areas) which makes what happened even more sickening. Ironically the Catholic church will no longer process formal defections (see www.countmeout.ie) which would be quite funny if it wasn't so serious.

[ChristinedePizan]

So you can't leave even if you want to? That's really disturbing