to wonder how Catholics can reconcile their faith with the Vatican's reaction to Ireland's abuse scandal?

[ChristinedePizan]

Recalling their envoy to Ireland can only be seen as an a tacit acceptance of paedophilia surely? Rape and torture of children is okay obviously as long as its carried out by men of the cloth

[Martha85]

DionetheDiabolist - I couldn't agree more, well said.

[queenmaeve]

Your question op is exactly the one that I as a catholic have been going over and over quite a lot this past while. I know that it is the same for any of my relatives, work collegues and friends who are catholic. Please don't assume for a second that catholics, especially in Ireland are reconciling this at all. People are quite simply horrified. The older generation in particular who have all their lives believed in the church are finding this most difficult. There are huge questions and crisis of faiths at the moment. As a teacher in a catholic school the care of children is my biggest concern. Among the staff it has been discussed at length. You have to understand it is not just a matter of people being catholic one day and turning away from the church the next.the catholic church is a major thread in the social fabric of ireland. It will change but it is not going to be an instant thing.

[rhetorician]

queenmaeve - what you say about the older generation I have found to be largely true: the issue of trust is huge, given the church's involvement in every aspect of life in Ireland from cradle to grave. Many of the older people I know (MIL, particularly) feel very vulnerable and lost - they wonder how this happened without them knowing, did they miss the signs etc? But part of the problem in a way is that the church helped to foster a situation where its authority could never be questioned, where individuals who went home and suggested that something terrible was happening were told that it couldn't be true (like my now dead neighbour who always made the point that Christian Brothers beat the poorest boys the hardest). The older generation feels responsible, even though there are many different bodies who are responsible.

[UntitledNo2]

I was born and raised a Catholic. Am not now.

My Gran lost her youngest son, aged 18, and still, 40 years later, she arranges masses for him, grieves for him, and finds solace in prayer. That keeps her going. Mass for my uncle every Sunday gives her something to focus on, and if not for that, my Gran would be a wreck.

I no longer consider myself a Catholic, have not for many years. The abuses of the Catholic Church anger me. Big time. However, those abuses are not representative of the Catholic Church as a whole. I spent my youth in a Catholic school. And made some amazing friends, had a ball doing so. I now no longer subscribe to those beliefs on which I was raised. I have embraced another religion.

I have a very close family member who is very highly involved with the Catholic Church. He is amazing, is fantastic, and is essentially a second father to me. My (non-religious) DP adores him, he is just amazing. And, not just a Catholic.

[rogersmellyonthetelly]

I am not a catholic I am c of e, but if my church was guilty of harbouring child abusers or any other criminal who has systematically caused harm to any member of the community, and by not allowing confessors to break the seal of confession continued to allow this horror to persist, I would lose any respect for that church and it's leaders and consider them unfit to speak the word of God and to preach it. our Lord said we should stand up for the weak and oppressed, whatever the personal cost to us, and I will do that to the best of my ability to the end of my life.
As for condoms, they don't 100% prevent HIV, but they are a damn sight better than nothing. I get where the pope is coming from re nfp, it's great if you are in a stable relationship where you know your partner has no STD, but plenty of people don't have that, and have casual sex. Yes I know this is morally wrong for Catholics, but let's face it, we are in fact human and capable of making mistakes like this.

[Mitmoo]

Martha how can you say condoms don't prevent HIV AIDS?

I was raised a Catholic I longer practice, most Catholics I know are totally abhorred by the paedophile priests and the subsequent cover up.

It is afterall indefensible. But is has to be remembered that most Catholics and most priests and bishops are good people who are horrified by these revelations.

[NorfolkNChamberOfSecrets]

To quote the mighty Dara O'Briain

"Once you've started Catholic, frankly, there's no real way to stop being Catholic. Catholicism: the stickiest, most adhesive religion in the world. You could join the Taliban - you'd merely be regarded as 'a bad Catholic'."

[CurrySpice]

I think it's a bit disingenuos to portray older Irish people as bewildered and shocked at these things rhet

The physical abuse and mental cruelty carried out by amongst others, the Christian Brothers in schools and orpahages etc was well known at the time it was happening and many many people in Irish society turned a blind eye to it

[Aislingorla]

My mother (aged 74) tell how much the nuns beat the girls from the local orphanage (in her class). They were concidered sinfull because they were the results of 'sin'.
My Dad (almost 84) tell how they were told that the Maggies (Mag. laundry girls) were penitants!

They were brainwashed and today are shocked at the revelations but still practice catholism (brings them personal satisifaction/part of a community etc.).
I stopped practicing at 15, they don't mind (now!) and I leave them to theirs.

[Empusa]

"NFP is more reliable than condoms. "

Aside from the fact it is less reliable than condoms at preventing pregnancy. The real issue with people being told they cannot use condoms is in countries where HIV is spreading. How on earth does NFP prevent that?

[ChristinedePizan]

Thanks for the very interesting discussion, I have a much better understanding of the link between national identity and faith in Ireland. I think for many of us who haven't been brought up with that, it's quite hard to understand. Dione - while I completely understand your POV and that you don't feel any obligation to justify yourself to me or anyone else, I actually think that it is critical for Catholics to speak up. It is inevitable that the world is going to be looking hard at the Vatican. Telling people to fuck off when they are asking how you are able to reconcile your faith with what has happened comes across as closing ranks, even if that's not what you actually feel.

[Sassybeast]

'The Catholic Church likes it's followers to be ignorant and credulous - all the better to rip them off, my Dear'

And it seems that they're doing a pretty good job of it

[izzywhizzyletsgetbusy]

Anyone who believes that an allegedly celibate geriatric ex-Nazi dressed in a frock is God's Vicar on Earth will have no problem whatsoever aligning themselves with the Vatican and will continue to turn a blind eye to all of the ills that Roman Catholicism has caused, and persists in causing, to the world.

[Mitmoo]

Back in Ireland children wouldn't be believed and the children would be blamed for turning on a Priest, you just couldn't do it. I told a priest what I thought when he didn't visit Mum after she lost her grandchild for three weeks and she goes to church every day.

Mum Irish old school was horrified, he got his bum around to the house though. I had to get a C of E vicar to see her in the meantime. She was concussed as a child by a nun throwing a blackboard wiper, Grandad went mental apparantly.

I have issues with hypocritical Catholics but most Catholics are good people as are most priests and bishops.

What happened to those children is atrocious, unbelievable but it's not if you know what I mean, I just want it to be unbelievable. It happened and it is a matter of deep shame for the church.

[onagar]

You can't expect Catholics to care about the abuse of a few children when it's their church at stake.

[Mitmoo]

onagar that's not fair on the ordinary Catholics, the Catholics I know care very much. Old school Catholics will find it very hard to speak out against a priest it's tabboo but thankfully changing a lot.

I've lapsed and had rows with two Catholics who are in authority for abusing that in different ways, so I'm no apologist, but most weren't involved with the paedophilia or the cover up.

[Mitmoo]

Sinister Catholics generally have the best schools and everyone wants the best for their children.

To be fair what the church says and what many Catholics believe are often at odds. I doubt the head or the teachers in the school would see anything wrong with IVF.

It's not as if Jesus could have written this development into the bible is it?

The church needs to modernise big time.

[Marjoriew]

When I tried to tell the teachers in school what was going on with the priests and nuns, I was sent back to Nazareth House where I was subsequently beaten to within an inch of my life.
Injuries included being lifted up by my ears until I lost consciousness, being beaten with a wooden coat hanger over my back, and finally being locked in the crypt under the chapel with the dead nuns coffins, in the pitch dark, with no food or water. I was kept off school for weeks on end until the bruises healed. No one asked where I was, not the teachers, and the children were forbidden to mention anything of what had gone on. The lay staff at the homes never spoke out. Their homes were owned by the Church and they had their own families to consider.
This happened as a regular occurrence and was not a one off.

[CurrySpice]

Oh Marjorie :( that is just beyond dreadful :(

And with this going on I find all this supposed shock about abuse in Ireland a bit hard to take. Many many people inside and outside the Catholic church have been comlicit in abusing children for many many years. Now they act all surprised when priests are discovered to be abusing children. It stinks tbh

[CurrySpice]

comlicit = complicit

[Mitmoo]

That's awful Marj, I just don't know what to say and it's rare I'm rendered speechless.

[SirGin]

The truly horrific is illustrated by Marjoriew. It's not just the raping of children, abhorrent enough, it's the fact that right up to senior positions in the church it was hushed up, abusive priests moved to other areas to continue the abuse, and those who had the courage to speak out beaten, abused and / or dismissed.

And this isn't just an Irish problem. I struggle to understand how anyone can subscribe to an organization like that.

[izzywhizzyletsgetbusy]

Words are inadequate, Marjorie, but I am so very sorry for the suffering you endured at the hands of those who were charged with having your welfare and wellbeing at the forefront of their minds and hearts.

I sincerely hope that you have had help in coming to terms with your childhood experiences, and that you are able to truly believe that you did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to warrant or deserve such appalling treatment,

Sadly, as you know, your experience is not unique: countless hundreds of thousands of childen have been, and continue to be, brutalised and mentally and physically scarred for life by Catholic priests, nuns, and those who worship the sacred Mother and Child.

The supreme irony is that, according to the tenets of this most insidious religion, abused children are required to confess their sins.

Perhaps DionetheDiabolist (curious name for a follower of Christ) or their ilk will once again demonstrate the extent to which they have been brainwashed by Catholicism attempt to defend the indefensible practices of the Church of Rome.