If you are an atheist...

[Pruni]

Message withdrawn

Well, this turned nasty.
It truly wasn't meant to. It was supposed to be a thread for atheists to give me a few tips on how not to be patronised by ignorant christians. By which I mean, not christians, of whom there have been some strikingly intelligent and unpatronising ones, but rather the type who resort to demeaning our beliefs or non-beliefs by either refusing to recognise that they are different to theirs, or by dismissing us as immoral. Thankfully not much of the latter on this thread, but plenty of the former. I suppose it must be taught on the Alpha course or something.....

and ruty, so sorry you got angry, tbh in that situation I would have too.

sorry bloss, I still find your arguements rather narrow minded and unintellectual. It is not just my argument. People who have studied theology and the bible for many, many years, more than i suspect you have [and certainly more than I] have written these arguments for many years. It is silly to not look at how the bible was written, by how many different voices, and look at each voice's cultural and historical context. My grandfather is having phd thesises written about his own theological teachings [ his passion and his witness to Christ surpassed anyone i know of] as we speak and tho this may seem like boasting, it is more to show you that you can't pretend its just people like me who seek the amazing truth from the Bible, and see also its flaws.
Fundamentalist Christianity has become like the pharisees Christ warned against. Self righteous, dogmatic, and bigoted. It threatens to kill everything Christ stood for. This is why i feel so strongly and got angry with you. Aloha obviously believes that is what Christianity is about already.

and thanks Pruni.

and Cam!

and i don't think i've ever been 'deeply upset' by you before Bloss. Frustrated yes, but not 'deeply upset.' You have a rather deceiving and smug turn of phrase.

and sorry, i haven't got the knack of concealing my insults under a thin veil of civilized contempt - will either have to learn or give up all togther.

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Don't rise to it, ruty.

Nooka, you can't read my posts that way at all really.

Ruty, remember that it is impossible to argue with fundamentalism, one of its basic tenets is that it is right

thanks pruni and Cam. My opinions haven't changed about you Bloss, but may peace be with you too.

i called fundamentalist christianity bigoted dogmatic and self-righteous bloss, not you personally. And though I do appreciate your peace offering, I don't think one has to use bad adjectives to be insulting.

and your arguments are narrow minded and unintellectual. You on the other hand, may well be a lovely person!

Peace unto you all my children!

Stop and think for a moment about what it is that's getting you so upset... Cause and Effect.

People with different opinions to you are
Entitled to type messages on their own computer -
As you are. It is
Completely up to you whether or not you react, but be aware that cause and
Effect is the only thing that has upset you.

Nothing More. Nothing Less.

Cam, I am confused (and I am really not looking to pick a fight in any way). I read your post to mean that you would consider that anyone who behaved in a way you consider to be Christian (with love and forgiveness) to be a Christian. I merely said that many people who would not consider themselves to be Christian think that love and forgiveness are important. Is that not what you meant? Because I did read your posts to mean that.

nooka i didn't read Cam's posts like that.

Hi ruty, how did you read Cam's post? I'm just confused here

Bloss - just to be clear - I certainly didn't mean to say communism is a religion. Only that communism is not a good example to use as life without religion, because it isn't an 'ordinary' secular society, which enables tolerance. Just as some Islamic counties (Saudi Arabia, I think) would not be good examples of an 'ordinary' socitey based on religion, because religious societies usually act in tolerance too.

And I certainly didn't say that religion causes wars. people cause wars, and religion is just one of the things that people, in their falliability, include in the things they fight over. But not usually, I think, unless other associated factors like land or power or ethnicity, are bound up in the mix.

ruty - you are clearly quite determined to take offence, and am I sure if God existed he would be perfectly able to take care of himself.
But there you go.
I doubt very much that I am more unintellectual than you are, however.

Hi Nooka, of course I don't mean that people who act in a Christian way are Christian (as self-defined).

I was making the point that the Christian message is not a complicated thing.

And that, even if you're not defining yourself as a Christian, your actions are in accordance with Christian values.

aloha i don't doubt that you not less intellectual than me! But your arguements about the bible remind me of the un-intellectual arguments of fundamentalist christians. And you are aggressive in your tone - repeatedly - which caused me to lose my temper. You are not going to change your mind or even consider another argument so i found the whole thing a bit pointless and time wasting.

i mean i don't doubt that you are not less intellectual than me!

i was also cross with myself for wasting so much weekend time that i should have been spending with my son and dh.

or that you are not more unintellectual than me, whichever you prefer!

Think maybe I'm a Jehovah's Bystander - quite interested in believing in a supreme being, but not really sure I want to get involved