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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

If you are an atheist...

500 replies

Pruni · 17/11/2005 23:07

Message withdrawn

OP posts:
Papillon · 22/11/2005 12:31

wow you have posted 6 times in a row Ruty

Blu · 22/11/2005 13:55

Indeed, and it is because I am an athiest that I can choose the philosophies, ethics and values of a range of religions, and from secular moralists, philosophers and thinkers, and assign divinity to none.

Without being an expert on the subject, it does seem that every civilization, the world over, has included belief in gods which are aligned to the logic of their world. From the pantheistic beliefs of native americans, to the cat worshippers of Egypt and the ancient foundations of Hinduism or aboriginal DreamTime....

The fact that none of these civilizations shared a common god is a clue, for me, that god is a construct of our thinking and very much in tune with the natural and historical context. I can see that this could be a sort of metaphor - when I was a practising christian (at Sunday School age), and engaged in discussion with my Methodist lay-preacher grandfather, even as a child I understod that God was a 'state of mind' - a level of goodness to be aspired to by means of a clear conscience, a sesne of responsibility for others and general doing good not harm. Heaven likewise - certainly not a geographical place in the sky. The only difference being that 'heaven' was your final position, a static stae, whereas while still alive, we could still improve our score!

My job used to entail an annual dinner with a man with 'The Very Reverend' in front of his name, and he was of the opinion that the effect of the best of the arts on the human mind was exactly the same as religious contemplation, and that he thought that the arts and religion fulfilled much the same function, and was prepared to admit to a certain agnosticism.

When I was a child, my grandmother used to get me to sit on the rug with a seashell in my hand, and she would say 'hold that, and think, until you know who who made it' I did sit, for a long time, many times, and the answer for me was always a mystery, but a material process. The tantalisation of the undiscovered nature of life, but the possibility that if electricity, heart transplants, evolution had all been discovered, then one day the processes behind creation would foillow.

And that, it seems, is the challenge for religion today. The Ancients had little knowledge of the empirical scientific advances which have showed us just how sophisticated natural phenomena are, but once we do know, aren't we going to suppose that the answer, as yet unknown, is another level of the same material processes?

I don't think that that means that any genuine wisdom which went hand in hand with religion is necessarily defunct. The beliefs of the native americans make absolute sense in thie relationship to survival, for e.g.

It is also, I think, a duty for 21stC religious people to ensure that they do not perpetrate outdated, often barbaric, beliefs and behaviours in the name of religion, from times when religion WAS society.
`

ruty · 22/11/2005 14:01

i agree with what you say Blu - i think the wisest people often admit to knowing the least. Just one more point for aloha - Jesus was taking the Jewish teachings forwards rather than contradicting them, taking them to a new level for human society.

ruty · 22/11/2005 14:01

agree with what you say Blu to an extent is should say!

ruty · 22/11/2005 14:02

paps

aloha · 22/11/2005 18:56

How do we fit into the universe? Easy, a/the universe is very big (we know that for sure) and we are quite small beings. And we die and rot away to make room for new people.
How does every human being that ever lived live on earth forever...well, that's quite a different question, isn't it?
So Heaven these days is the earth, right? And everyone who ever lived, is resurrected at some indeterminate future date and carries on living on earth, only we have no opportunity to change or learn anything?
And this is heaven?
WTF is hell then?!

ruty · 22/11/2005 19:22

oh dear. I'm too tired. Sorry!

Papillon · 22/11/2005 19:37

You have a wee sleep Ruty and I will answer that one!!

I see it simply as black and white metaphor. Heaven / hell... Ying / Yang... Day / night.

They represent balance but are not viewed as equally useful in lots of religions. Good thing about being an atheist, is that you can explore the darker aspects on a spiritual level without so much fear attached or condemnation.

aloha · 22/11/2005 19:53

I now know that there is a new, modern, improved school of thought that says that heaven doesn't exist, nor does life eternal, or hell, and that everything in the Bible (apart, apparently, for Love Thy Neighbour) is a metaphor. Which rather leaves me (genuinely) baffled as to what Christianity is supposed to be about.

PruniStuffing · 22/11/2005 20:05

Cor this thread ran away with itself! Too knackered really to read/catch up/contribute...
Was asked today why I am an atheist! I must be inviting them somehow...

Papillon · 22/11/2005 20:22

crowd control and guide to life and the universe

ruty · 22/11/2005 23:38

Aloha i have never said that - did you read the passsage I quoted from Matthew? Did you read what i said about Christ's actions, his associations with people the established religious types shunned? You are SO facetious sometimes! Being disrepectful to my faith and what i believe would be more easy to digest if you actually read what i have to say. [shoves fist back mouth.]

ruty · 22/11/2005 23:57

you take offence at being called 'angry', you said someone was calling you stupid when they weren't, but you see it as perfectly fine to go about your argument by dissing every single post i write, and not even registering the content of it. I entered this debate in good faith - silly me. I'm a bit staggered how you can diss what i believe so much with what seems to me stunnning narrow mindedness. Sorry if i'm so extreme, i resent the time i've wasted here, nobody's fault but my own, but its certainly taught me a lesson.

aloha · 23/11/2005 19:25

I'm sorry you feel so angry but I honestly don't feel that I have got any answers at ALL. Yes, some of what Jesus had to say is very nice indeed. I said that myself. But saying we must all be kind to each other is one thing, but religion has to be more than that, surely? What are you worshipping? How do we all fit on earth if earth is heaven, and what happens to the dead?

As I said:
How do we fit into the universe? Easy, a/the universe is very big (we know that for sure) and we are quite small beings. And we die and rot away to make room for new people.
How does every human being that ever lived live on earth forever...well, that's quite a different question, isn't it?
So Heaven these days is the earth, right? And everyone who ever lived, is resurrected at some indeterminate future date and carries on living on earth, only we have no opportunity to change or learn anything?
And this is heaven?
WTF is hell then?!

I am no nearer understanding how any of this works. Of course you don't have to answer, but I am fascinated.

aloha · 23/11/2005 19:33

I have to say I am TOTALLY baffled by the idea of Christianity with no heaven, no hell and a total rejection of the OT God. It certainly isn't what a lot of Christians believe in afaik.

nooka · 23/11/2005 21:46

Returning to Pruni's original question, I was looking for a definition of aetheism (wondering where the hedonistic bit comes from, really) and found this interesting web-site. Not sure I agree with all of it, but some interesting thoughts. I must admit, it is not something that I have ever researched before, and there are some very odd sites out there!

Twiglett · 23/11/2005 21:49

nobody answered me on other thread so I thought I'd paste my question here

Could those who believe in the heaven / hell thing explain exactly to me what happens to devout muslims, jew, hindus, ba'athists etc who spend their lives in devotion and good deeds but refuse to accept Jesus as messiah?

do you truly believe, if there is such an afterlife punishment that they are bound automatically for hell?

Cam · 23/11/2005 21:59

I think that atheists don't realise how simple the Christian message is, its love and forgiveness, that's it.

nooka · 23/11/2005 22:04

Mmm, after reading some more, I now need to decide whether in fact I am a strong or weak aetheist (these terms seem slightly loaded to me), if my aetheism is explicit or implicit (the former I think) if perhaps I am a nontheist, or alternately whether I should describe myself as a proponent of practical atheism or speculative / contemplative atheism. Quite like the idea of saying I am a contemplative aetheist. Sounds very profound doesn't it Aloha, you might like the term Agnosticism, the view that the question of whether or not deities exist is inherently meaningless. Umm, maybe I should think about pursing an academic career again. Very interesting! For more see here

nooka · 23/11/2005 22:05

But Cam, whilst I am not disagreeing with you, it is quite possible to follow the basic tenets of love and forgiveness without any Christian (or indeed religious) beliefs at all.

PruniStuffing · 23/11/2005 22:06

Cam, no disrespect, but I don't think atheists are bothered whether it's simple or not - it's the belief in a deity that is the stumbling block!

PruniStuffing · 23/11/2005 22:06

I second that, nooka.

roosmum · 23/11/2005 22:07

i keep reading aetheist as 'aesthete'...

wonder if there's anything in that?! (my latent dyslexia aside, obviously)

roosmum · 23/11/2005 22:09

also now as the atheists try to work out exactly WHICH type of atheism they practice...

PruniStuffing · 23/11/2005 22:14

I know roosmum I can't click on the link! This thread has made my brain explode...

(Will do when have more time as fascinated, actually.)