If you are an atheist...

[Pruni]

Message withdrawn

you convenientl ignore the brilliance of the quotes you have just written out [or cut and pasted] how Christ teaches that we must feed and clothe the poor, and how not to do that is the worst sin possible. How bloody radical is that in his age? Unbelieveable political and social radicalism, putting that at the core of human morality. Brilliant. Thanks for that aloha!

I've always rather liked that bit of Matthew. It is a fairly radical piece of writing, and something I am happy to (try) and live my life by. There is great philosophy, beautiful poetry and interesting thoughts in all of the great religious texts (along with stuff that makes me personally deeply uncomfortable). Many faiths have examples of leaders and followers of great humanity that have inspired others. I guess I just see this as the positive side of being human, and what people can acheive and be. It is unfortunate that there is also plenty on the converse side (and religion is just one of many justifications used for this). I see this as the depths of what people can acheive and be. It is my understanding that religion is a reflection of humanity, that faith can both support and destroy, and that at the end of the day it is faith itself, not the texts or teachings which can be interpreted in a myriad of ways, that is important. And I don't have it. I expect to be judged (kindly I hope) on what I do, not what I say I believe. However my understanding, certainly of Christianity, is that it is only faith that brings you to God.

I have honed my answer to the original question on this thread after years working in a mainly muslim environment.

'Miss, are you a Christian?' my students ask, to which my relpy is 'Certainly not!'. They look confused, then ask 'But don't you believe in god?' to which I always briskly answer 'Of course not'.

Confuses them entirely, especially, thanks to the joys of a religious studies degree, I can quote the Q'ran back at them, and with more accuracy.

I CATted you to tell you how much I loved it, Slug, but it may not have got through.

Gosh, motherinferior, thank you. No I didn't get the email. (Or perhaps dh deleted it in his drive to rid us of the viagra spammers)

Um, the reference to 'fire' comes straight from the Bible. This is Jesus talking (apparently). No matter how nice the stuff about social justice is, there is still a clear statement that hell - in the physcial sense of fire and brimstone - exists.

And from the old testament is it obvious that if God existed he would be evil (ie a mass murderer). The alternative explanation is that it is bollocks, frankly, and the writers got it all wrong. Neither seems particularly to help the Christian cause.
I am FASCINATED by belief, because it is SO irrational and would LOVE to hear how you can explain, why, if Christ's message is so important it is so very confused and confusing and why it is so full of 'metaphor' if he is trying to tell us something so important.

I am also no nearer to understanding what 'salvation' is and how we achieve it (works or faith? Faith alone? Works alone?) and why the Bible is full of references to Hell is there is no such place.

If salvation just means - 'if we follow Jesus's teachings then the world will be a nicer place' (which is what I understand by your reference to being saved from ourselves) - then what was all the Jesus dying for the sins of the world about? And what is 'The Kingdom of Heaven' and how does the afterlife come into it?

"life eternal" v "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"
what are these metaphors for exactly? And how can you tell they are metaphors?

I'm an atheist, have complete belief in the creation of life as a material process, and am no less in wonder of it's value - or transience - for that. I actually feel that our tiny short insignificant and unextendable (through the any after-life) means we should use it a lot more wisely than I do.

But I am not necessarily against religion - or those with religious beliefs, I am much more interested in how people behave than what they believe. And the best and worst of human behaviour can be laid at feet of the religious and non-religious alike.

I think I might be a 'Christian Atheist' - I do agree with the teachings in the parables (the ones I can think of, any way - don't beleive in miracles, but if I did the results are ones that I would support!), and am hugely attracted to Christ's role in ousting 'eye for an eye' in favour of 'turning the other cheek', and his emphasis on suporting the powerless and debunking the pompous in a very structured hierarchical world. If Christ was good enough for Ghandi, he's good enough for me...but I have no belief in the son-of-god aspect, or god.

And as an athiest, I explain my views pretty much in that way. The first para, anyway.

not a 'nicer place' aloha , a kingdom of heaven on earth, a truly revolutionized society where all people are equal and we see God in every human being. Politically this has unimaginable connotations. Its so easy to dismiss 'Love your neighbour as you love yourself' as some nicey wishy wash statement, but actually that's just a way of avoiding the huge social and political implications of actually taking it on board. If people like nooka can have affection for that passage you quoted, it obviously had more meaning for some than it does for you. And i'm not sure if a Jewish person would like the way you describe the OT God, but that's not for me to say. and as for the metaphors of suffering, there was a huge fire outside the walls of Jerusalem where they burnt all the rubbish, and one scholarly view is that Jesus was referring to that as a metaphor, Jesus is trying to describe the pain and torture of knowing what you have done, in this case, not fed and clothed the poor, not welcoming the stranger, not visiting those in prison. If, for all eternity, we have to live with our own consciences, then that actually is the most torturous thing of all. If you don't want to believe that, then fine, but its not just me saying it, there are tons of excellent theological books and writers from the Celtic Christians to today. Maybe you should read some of those.

And like your 'Christian athiest' description Blu

There'd be nothing for Bono to write his songs about if there were no parables...and does turn a good christian metaphor, doesn't he..?

But claiming that the second part of this passage is a metaphor makes no sense. The speech deliberately moves from clear metaphor - the parable of the talents - and then changes to being quite clearly NOT metaphorical (ie it is explaining the metaphor that came before it) - "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"
This is clear from the text as being the words of Jesus himself, explaining what the parables is about.
Thus the line "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" is part of the non-metaphorical stuff. And the idea that the fire refers to some rubbish tip outside Jerusalem makes no sense when it is described as prepared "for the devil and his angels"

Seems to me you see the ultimate point of Christianity as a better life on earth - so how do you explain 'life eternal' then? Do we all live eternally on earth? It's going to get awfully crowded isn't it? And do we get older or stay the same age as we were when we died? And if so, it's a bugger living to 100 isn't it? We should all top ourselves at 25!

I honestly can see absolutely no evidence from this passage that it is about 'living with our conscience for all eternity' - nothing whatsoever. I suspect that much of the Bible is simply unpalatable for modern tastes (too bloodthirsty/sexist/vengeful etc) so what you do like - 'love thy neighbour' is seen as straightforward and the words of Jesus and the rather less attractive 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels' is dismissed as 'metaphor'. Which seems a suspiciously easy way out to me.
Yes, Jesus did suggest some thorougly decent moral points. But he's hardly the only person in history to do so, and we don't worship everyone who wants others to do good, do we? Or assume they are therefore divine?

Also, as I asked before, if salvation just means - 'if we follow Jesus's teachings then the world will be a nicer (even very much nicer)place' (which is what I understand by your reference to being saved from ourselves) - then what was all the Jesus dying for the sins of the world about? And what is 'The Kingdom of Heaven' and how does the afterlife come into it?

Absolutely out of my depth here so I won't conribute to the debate.

I just wanted to let you know that this thread goes from strength to strength and I'm thoroughly enjoying lurking on it.

i thought it was just me and aloha left spidermama! aloha i didn't say jesus was referring to a rubbish tip i was saying a very powerful image in the consciousness of the average bloke in jerusalem was this huge fire burning day snd night, and christ may have utilized this image to express the idea of the suffering of the conscience. It is clear whatever i tell you , you will discount it, and thats up to you. my dh is just at the door coming home and he will KILL me if he sees i'm on this thread [warning - this is a metaphor.] There are many books you could read if you wanted that i could suggest but i doubt you want to. But i don't have a problem with you asking these questions. Maybe there is an everlasting heaven up in the sky - i can't tell you. But you are ignoring the amazing content of christs message to the world, of that i'm clear.

also, doesn't 'love thy neighbour' predate Christ anyway? It's Jewish, not Chistian in origin. So not quite so radical. A good thing, certainly, but not new or unique to Jesus.

the law of love that Christ brought to the understanding of previous jewish laws pretty much revolutionized them. As blu said, it went from 'an eye for an eye' to 'turn the other cheek' And love thy neighbour as you love yourself was Christ's law. Seems old news now but at the time these things were pretty shocking. We must take them for granted now, as they are so infused into our morality.Not that we do them tho.

look at this

Sorry Ruty but I am sure you are wrong on this. Love Thy Neighbour as thyself is Old Testament. Leviticus. Jesus was quoting, not saying anything original. So he did NOT change the law from 'an eye for an eye to love thy neighbour...'
He was quoting an old Jewish law. So not revolutionary at all.
Now, how are we all going to fit on the earth when it becomes the 'Kingdom of Heaven', and in what shape are we going to do so? Will there still be Mumsnet?

PSML at image of mumsnetting angels
Seriously (have decided to pile in on this thread) Aloha is right. Jesus was asked about the greatest commandment. He said the two greatest were 'love thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul and strength' and 'love thy neighbour as thyself'. What he did do was remind his contmporaries about the supremacy/importance of these.
More later - got to go to work.

yes agree that christ was using the 'best' of the Jewish Law. Of course he was influence by it, it was the religion he was brought up in. But you m ust remember that 'an eye for an eye'and other Jewish laws are not compatible with this law of love. He was emphasizing the necessity of making the law of love greater than all others. and 'do not do what is hateful to you to your neighbour' [paraphrase] is not quite the same as love your neighbour as you love yourself. Anyway will ask my dad about this one, just to clarify!

well how do we all fit into the universe aloha?

as for mumsnet, ah well, only God knows that one...if there is there must also be internet porn...

and Ebay...

also there was so much in Christ's teachings which were different to the previous laws and teachings - and this is impossible to deny. One of his closest friends was a former prostitute, and when she was to be stoned he told them 'Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone'. can get reference later but running out to ds's music class. Many theologians believe Christ had female disciples, but the male writers of the time made them 'friends' instead. Certainly he had close female friends who followed his teachings [this is NOT a crappy Da vinci Code suggestion]. The teachings in his parables often go much further than the ideas in previous law.

Matthew 5 v38-48
[and i am not cut and pasting this but writing it out]
'you have heard that it was said, and eye for an
eye, a tooth for a tooth.' But i say to you, Do
not resist one who is evil. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also, and if anyone would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well, and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.

You have heard it said, 'You shall love your neigghbour and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies, and pray for those that persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven, for he makes the sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing that all the others? '

All new. I could go on.