If you are an atheist...

[Pruni]

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Is that my link? I am now deciding that I like the term philosophical naturalism Do you think that if someone asked me my religious views, and I replied: "I feel that my thoughts on belief fall loosely into the area of philosophical naturalism" anyone would ask a follow up question?

Link again or cut and paste:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Etymology

firstly i don't reject the OT God. I find your claims very worrying, aloha, because they are slightly fascistic in my opinion, as i think are the views of fundamentalist christians, jews and muslims - they deny the validity of anyone else's opinions. If you told an educated moderate [but practising] Jewish person that if they don't believe their God is a mass murderer they are rejecting their God I'd be very interested to see what they had to say to you. I said Christ takes the OT laws further, not that he rejected them completely, and completely rearticulated them under the pre-eminent Law of love. As i said many times it is very easy to disregard Jesus as having said 'nice' things, and that the world would be a 'nicer' place if we followed his teachings - that is a convenient way of disregarding everything he had to say and the power it has to transform the world. As for heaven, i told you already i am a christian agnostic. I don;t know if a heaven beyond this earth exists for our souls. I keep my mind open. I know that Christ stressed the importance [and the possibility] of creating a heaven on earth through his teachings. if there is a heaven beyond this life, it exists on a different plane of time and space, and therefore there are no overcrowding problems. Science discovers unimaginable things all the time - and i keep and open mind to all the things we may discover in the future. Who gets to go i haven't a clue but i don;t think its a separate place to hell, i think the two are states of mind and conscience in infinity.

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yes bloss, it was a bit like arguing with you on this thread. Incredibly narrow minded annd wanting in any rigorously intellectual theology.

and i wasn't taking out distasteful bits like hell - i was saying that the worst hell is the torture of the conscience, but for self righteous narrow minded people that must be a bit hard to understand.

oh, one last thing - i hope you don't eat shellfish or anything with a cloven hoof Bloss, otherwise you'd be leaving out distasteful parts of the bible.

oh sorry, another thing. My father and my grandfather spent their whole lives living as Christ taught them to - fighting for various human rights issues to the point of being beaten up by police, being arrested, living and working amonsgst the poor, fighting for social justice and equality and never retiring into the middle class stupor of most christians [including myself]. My grandfather lost a daughter to polio because they lived amongst the slums in East London before the war, and he fought fiercely to improve housing conditions for his parish. It is their christianity that i have learned from. If you want lightweight, please look at yourself.

You go ruty girrrrl

Well I think I'm going to declare myself a contemplative atheist and start a pogrom against the speculative ones.

Ruty, I am absolutely dying to know your opinions. Why else do you think I keep asking questions.
I really do think throwing the world fascistic about is such a cop out. It's one of those words - like racist - which is designed to end debate. There is nothing remotely fascistic in challenging opinions and asking questions, and I'm sure you know that really.
I didn't make up the bits in the Bible about God killing and ordering the killing of many, many people. If you accept the Bible as true, then that is what God is like. He kills people. I would also be interested to know what a practising Jew makes of this vengeful, angry, murderous God. It's a bit disappointing discussing it with most Christians as they simply say (IME) that's not the real God. And that has to mean that the OT is all wrong about God, which sounds like a rejection of it to me.
And I also think it is odd to say, 'but there's also lots about God being nice' because really, I'm sure Hitler and Stalin had their good points but we do tend to judge them on their bad ones. I'd find it a bit hard to overlook the killing, which as I said, is in the Bible and happens fairly frequently.
And surely the question of who gets to go to heaven is absolutely central to Christian theology?
I am surprised however, that you are so free with unkind personal comments. I haven't made any personal comments to you Ruty.

All I'm trying to do is have a discussion about religion!

And my grandfather spend much of his life working for the trade union movement and then for pensioners rights. My family has quite a long history of social activism via socialism. You don't have to be religious to be interested in improving the lot of others.

no of course you don't have to be religious to help others. I just object to being called lightweight and showing why i object to that. I think its a bit funny that you don't think you have made a personal attack on me aloha - you have been patronising and not actually engaged with the points i've made - instead glossing over them and going back to your rather extreme arguments. And then when Bloss joins in i think i its hilarious - it confirms what i've been saying about the similarity between you and fundamentalist christians. I'm sorry if i have got angry, i have - i think all of this is a huge distraction to actually implementing christ's teachings in our lives, mine included. I've told you what i believe and don;t see any point in furthering the discussion. If you want to talk about hell and damnation please go on discussing with Bloss.

i think claiming my opinions just make the world 'nice' and calling me lightweight are both huge cop outs.

oh and thanks slug for very unexpected but much appreciated kind words!

I didn't call you anything. YOU have been personal and abusive.
I actually didn't say your views make the world 'nice' at all but had I done so I scarcely think that's offensive! What on earth is offensive about 'nice'?
I could call your remarks quite unChristian but hey ho. I never made you debate or post and this thread was aimed at atheists.

oh aloha really. you need to take a good hard look at yourself. i do feel sad at how this thread has gone, and i know i got angry, but i think its hilarious that you feel so self righteous about you have behaved. It has taught me a lesson not to get into debates with both fundamentalist christians and fundamentalist athiests.

i'm sure lots of people will rally round you for support, i expect that, i shouldn;t have posted here. I regret getting angry, but i still am, and yes, people who want to follow Christ still fail and are very flawed, so i don;t know why you expect me to behave better than you. I told you again and again there was no point in our discussing anything, after i had answered all your questions on how i see the bible and christ's teachings. First you told me i believed in a mass murdering God [i take that as an insult] and you then went on to summarize all my careful explanations of my faith as not really believing in anything except love thy neighbour. i didn't actually get angry until bloss joined in, and i'm sorry i did. I should have gone away and taken a few deep breaths first. But it is one thing to criticize another's faith. It is another to totally diss it, and all that some amazing people i have known in my life have stood for.

Sure it is Nooka and Prunistuff, but you are following Christian values, ie.you are acting as a Christian. That's all it is.

Thanks for your posts, Ruty, on this thread, I know exactly where you're coming from.

Bloss and Aloha, there's nothing lightweight about love and forgiveness.

Sorry Cam, are you now claiming that Christians have a monopoly on love and forgiveness? I am not acting as a Christian, because I am not one. I am simply trying to behave in a way that I consider morally right. Of course that is affected by my Christaian upbringing, but there are other beliefs and ways of living out there that hold similar principles - for example would you therefore say that a Muslim is "acting as a Christian" when following their teachings (where mercy plays a very strong role)?

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