If you are an atheist...

[Pruni]

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not you personally aloha. Us as a human race.

Now I'm really confused. "
...then is it really ok, really enough to pursue your own happiness/success etc, in the face of so many suffering, struggling? it's an epicurean survival of the fittest in that case, not very warm & fuzzy at all really..."
How does my trying to make the best life I can become a bad thing? Why is it any more indifferent to human suffering than religion (which has caused so much of it)?
Who said life was 'warm and fuzzy'?
Why is all this suffering on earth...and then MORE suffering afterwards any more 'warm and fuzzy'?

laligo, i'm replying to something from aloha about making life beautiful, as it's all we (you) have.

it's not about how much atheists 'care' about others, not if you read below.

As it happens, I give to charity, buy the Big Issue, write features that I hope will help others, donate to the Christmas fair for the PTA blah blah. And I fail to see how going to church or believing in God actually helps those suffering masses.

i will get out of the way of this as wires are getting crossed. I was talking about salvation of the human race. I don't believe in suffering in the after life. If there is one, and if there is suffering, it is only because we become aware of the pain we have caused to others. i don't think there is anything wrong in leading a good life and not believing.

An atheist lawyer I know devotes much of her life to saving people from death row. Much of her work is in the most religious places on earth.

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But what do you mean by salvation of the human race? How will this manifest itself? What about 'the Kingdom of Heaven' and 'damnation'?

aloha, you asked what was wrong with leading a good & happy life...
this (noble attempt tho it is) sounds pretty warm & fuzzy to me - & i don't think it is really.

Why not?

the thing is we have to act as a society to really make a difference.It is not about believing in God, it is about doing what Christ told us to do. Spread wealth equally amongst society, cancel third world debts, honour the dustman as much as the financial analyst [or more actually] Love our neighbours as much as we love ourselves! Taken on an international scale that could pretty much revolutionize the world.

who are you quoting when you say 'damnation'?

So it's not about religion at all?

this is getting clear as mud...

pruni, it harks way back along the thread to aloha's point about enjoying life, actually making life beautiful, because there's nothing else.
i suggested that the pursuit of la bella vita, if there's nothing beyond the grave (or if there is, for that matter, but that's a different thing), equates to a kind of personal ratrace, in which you may as well please yourself, tickle your tastebuds, love your children, whatever.
what else could it mean pruni??

its about christ's teachings for me. And that includes God, obviously.

Sorry Ruty, but how does the free will argument change the problem of ?natural? disasters (or acts of God) and a supposedly benevolent, omniscient and omnipresent god. It may very well be an ?evil? to cut down the rainforest or not build a tsnuami early warning system (still wouldn?t save everyone) but isn?t it just absurd to suppose that if only we were to behave differently all suffering would end? Isn?t that the argument? Or doesn?t it matter how much we clean up our act, if only one person sins, many millions of others will have to pay with their lives? It?s hard to avoid the conclusion that if God exists, then much of human suffering is his fault.

Hi Paps!

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,. . ."

Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

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i think there's 2 threads within 1 running here, crowded & confusing! i can't keep up!

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Why is loving your children and making life as beautiful as possible (perhaps, say, by working to free people from death row and adopting their children when they are so broken they cannot care for them themselves) a 'personal rat race'? What would Christians do instead?

No. I believe there is nothing more than life itself. No afterlife. No heaven, no hell. Our life is what we have. And we are very lucky to have it. We should, IMO, cherish it and make the most of it. (which probably doesn't mean being on MN, not matter how interesting the discussion).

Ruty your post of 9:30 reads rather more like Marx than Jesus. I had to chuckle, sorry

oh hell, so much to reply to and i want to go to bed. Aloha - i don't have a bible to hand [unlike you? ] so will have to address your selective quoting tomorrow, if you are still interested! MT - I believe in the Big Bang. Therefore i believe in a volatile planet in which earthquakes and other natural disasters occur. This is not incompatible with the idea of God, except for creationists and athiests.

I'll let you in on a secret - if you have a good, basic knowledge of the Bible and a talent for Googling, you can usually find what you are looking for!